when he was 21 with his family to meet up with his family who was looking for a wonderful mine in Broken Hill and he was going to make a family and so that’s where my mother and father met and I was born in Broken Hill. From there, we left there when I was only about four and we came down to live in Adelaide
and went to Lockley’s Kindergarten I think in Adelaide and I can still remember when my father left me there and then our next move we went to Roseworthy College. My father got a job as house master at Roseworthy College and I went there and I had nine years of living in the country in the area around Roseworthy which was a wonderful part of my life
and it endeared me to the farming sort of life forever. I learnt to milk a cow there and all that sort of thing. While I was there I went to, I always like telling everyone when I was overseas that I was a real Australian, I went to Kangaroo Flat School, which was the local primary school near Roseworthy, and the teacher there, Ms Lilly Fanny Poppy Baldwin.
I mean, can you believe it, but she taught the class of about 30-40 of us from grade 1 to grade 7 and we all learnt to write properly and read and do our tables. It was a lovely part of my life there and we went, I went from there for a while there I got a little bit of a nervous tick on either side and it would be better if I went and stayed with my
grandmother and aunt in Adelaide for 12 months and I went to Westbourne Park School there for 12 months and then after that I got a scholarship to go to Queens College North Adelaide and I went there from 1933 to 1937 and that was, that was a wonderful experience for me. A good round education with a little bit of religious background and
good dedicated teachers and I was always very pleased with the fact that I had the opportunity to go there. Where do you want me, I’m not sure how long you want me to go on here. Just leading up to the war?
childhood that was very happy with parents that were dedicated and loving, and although we never had very much money we had a very happy childhood. I had three sisters. That was about the only drawback of my life. I always thought because they always told tales on me and things like that being the eldest, but no, they grew up to be lovely women. So, but we, I remember in the Depression years
there all the staff of the college, Roseworthy College where my father had his position, they all had their salaries, 20-percent drop in their salaries and I always remember my mother and father going to a fancy dress ball with hessian suits on with 20 percent cut out of them. But we used to come home from school to dripping
fried underneath the thing but never felt deprived at all. So I loved visiting the various farms around the place and I had some very close friends right to the time they died recently. The Day family at Reeves Plains where I spent a lot of time, I learnt to milk a cow there and ride a horse and all those sorts of things that one likes to do as a youngster
and altogether I had a very happy childhood really. My mother was a very strong woman and my father was a gentle lovely man so I was very fortunate. After Queens College when I was 15 I got a job at Hall Bankshore. I did my Intermediate and I had to do it twice because
we got the dates mixed up and I missed my English exam so I had to go back to school for a year to do it again, but I passed my Intermediate and then I got a job in a drawing, first of all just as an apprentice fitter and turner in Hall Bankshores in Mile End a general engineering and agricultural engineer and the time that I spent there was wonderful really. I had a wonderful all round experience. I
started sweeping the floor and gradually within a year or two I was in the drawing office there learning to be a draftsman and doing engineering studies as well as my apprenticeship for fitting and turning. They were busy years and I had to ride my bike to my School of Mines, the trade school everyday. Three times a week I think I’d go to night school at the School of Mines
and once a fortnight or thereabouts to the trade school. I did quite well in all of my studies there so I was given quite a nice job there at Hall Bankshores. Pay of course in those days Hall Bankshores was battling a bit financially and they named us apprentices in name and pay, but as a matter of fact we never had signed indentures, if it hadn’t
been for that fact I wouldn’t have been able to join the air force. They would of sort of hung onto me I think. So while I was there I learnt to do a lot of estimates for work that was being offered to Hall Bankshores from the tender board and government and Broken Hill mines and everywhere and we sort of had to work out how many nuts and bolts were in them and
what timbers or metal things were used and get an estimate of time from all the various trades and all the others. Sometimes the estimates used to come to 2 – 3,000 pounds in those days and I was about 16 years of age or something and I couldn’t sleep at night for worrying in case I’d made a mistake and you see my seniors there,
the engineer there Mr Avery Gerr was a crotchety old man with a wooden leg but he was a wonderful man to work for. I used to take the work into him and he’d say, “Well have you made any mistakes Bob?” “No, Mr Gerr, I’m not sure. I don’t think so, I hope not.” “Well I haven’t got time to look at it.” And he’d put these estimates in and an age where we were very young really and taking big responsibility
and I used to go home and couldn’t sleep that night you know in case I’d made a mistake. But it was all very good training and we got a lot of responsibility at a very young age actually. I was drawing and they were doing, Hall Bankshores was a wonderful place to be an apprentice in the engineering field. They used to make agricultural machinery, boilers, they had a foundry there. A leading foundry
in South Australia for doing foundries and cast iron foundries. They had people going all over Australia putting down bores for water bores in the Territory [Northern Territory] and everywhere and one of my jobs was to get all the reports from these bores and draw up a picture of them with the various soils that they passed through. We coloured them all different and
red gravel and blue this and what have you and meet the borers when they came down and everything else. It was a wonderful background in engineering in all sorts of ways. They had a wonderful pattern shop there where they used to make all the patterns for the foundry and that which was a very skilful trade and always sort of right to this day I can remember the wood turning there which is a sort of hobby of mine now. I think I got the bug there.
He was gassed twice with mustard gas during the war and I think he, I think he might have finished up like my uncle did at Southern England where there was a big hospital, big army hospital and when they were injured in the trenches or had problems they would often take them back from France over to the hospital there and that was one of the places we went to when we were on my tour in November. So he
always explained to me how the mustard gas lay in the hollows, the shell holes, and it burnt right from his navel down, turned all his skin black and it all peeled off and one thing or another and the was gassed twice and burnt. Other than that he never complained about the war, and in fact, like all of us I suppose, I wish I’d asked him more about his experiences, but he was in the trenches and their
responsibility the Pioneers was to lay down, the dig trenches, to keep the trenches where the mud was thick. To get, put down decking and all that sort of stuff and so he had a fairly tough war but he survived. I think one, I think he and my mother had corresponded but never made any real commitment. My mother had quite a few suitors at the time and she kept her options open I think,
so when they came back from the war they decided to…and I’ve still got letters from my mother. My mother was a very, very strong Christian, and I’ve got letters she wrote to my father like when he went away.
the conditions he told me about. The conditions where the people were in the mud. The mud and the mess was something frightful at times and the Pioneers were expected to run out communication cables and keep the decking where people could get from one trench to another, and I always remember he was an expert at handling a shovel because he sort of had to teach everyone how to keep shovelling without sort of
breaking down, but no, he was a very quiet man in many ways my father. I sort of wish I’d drawn him out a lot more about his wartime experiences. We all do in those times, but if they don’t volunteer it, you don’t seem to unless you’ve got reason to you, you don’t seem to fish as much as you could. I do wish I’d known more about his work. My uncle as well, my uncle Fred, he was also a soldier. I’ve just been in touch with my
cousin in Melbourne for more information about both my uncle and one thing and another who both went away. So in answer to your question I should know more. But he finished being a good soldier and an officer, and when he came back from the war when the Second World War he was an officer in the defences here, like the local defence force
and took his job very seriously as well. So in answer to your question that’s not, I don’t know as much as I should about his wartime experiences. I did look up in the thing and it gave the dates when he was gassed and what have you. There is a book about the 3rd Pioneers in the National War Memorial but he and his younger brother
who joined up towards the end of the war, uncle George he also went to war in the 10th Battalion but nearer the end of the war because he was a bit younger than my father. I think my father was about 22 when he went away, 22 or 23. I think he was a few years older than my mother, so he might have been 24 even when he went away and I think my mother was married when she was just 21 or 22. Like I was.
It was a Church of England school. It wasn’t overly, overly pushed down our throats or anything but the standards of it. We used to get a weekly talk from the rector of Christ Church and all his assistants which sadly we kind of took
it as a free period I think. We never took it as seriously as we should of but because it’s an interesting sort of subject really because these young priests and some of them used to come and give us lecture on Scripture and because they didn’t have the authority of the school behind them you used to play up a bit and they must have had a terrible time at times trying to get anything into us because we
thought, “Well the headmasters not there, no one knows’ so we used to do all sorts of. I remember one bloke came and we put some evil smelling hair oil or something so when the Priest came and that he had to give us a lecture from way over the back of the classroom because of the terrible smell. Things like that. Stupid things really but that’s, we had a, with all of that we used to go to church regularly from
there. I was confirmed by the Bishop in Christ Church in Adelaide and the Reverend Murray who finished up being a Bishop himself in the Church of England and while all this was going on my mother was a leading light in the church movement down at Roseworthy College and she also started the girl guides there and you know the
boy scouts and all the others. She was always doing something like that. The principal of the school at the time wasn’t married. She was the sort of stand in companion for him at all the special functions. She was a sort of leader in the community as well as at home. But I’ve got a story later on about when I joined the air force. I’ll tell you something about mother’s advice to me
and one thing or another which is quite amusing.
girls was interesting. Because I was the eldest brother, I was always the one who was the leader of the pack and doing things I shouldn’t have been doing according to them and my eldest sister Joyce, I always thought she used to tell tales on me if I was doing anything. Killing a cat or chasing something or doing something I shouldn’t. But they’ve been all grown up to be lovely women. I used to have arguments with them
like all siblings do but the mainly because I was the eldest and I was away studying at night school and when I first had a job I remember the inference on them more than anything. They were going to high school and they always complained that, “Why isn’t Bob doing the washing up?” And all this sort of stuff but at the time I was going to night school three nights a week and working and they thought that I should do, be pulling my weight at the sink and a
few things like that. We used to have wonderful arguments but no, very happy relationships with them. The girls were all different. Joyce my eldest sister is a very, very. She’s got a terrible conscious and she is the goody-goody of the family, and she sort of thought it was her job to keep us doing all the right thing. I don’t know if she got that from mother or what. Ruth was more laid back and never studied as much as she should
but still got through all her exams. She was a sort of a, didn’t like getting up in the mornings and my sister Margaret came when I was still at college she was 10 years younger than me and her and I are very close. But she’s there. All lovely women. Happily married. Good families.
Our house was actually joined to the college. It was subsequently knocked down years later. It was a part of the college and I think that we were a little bit fortunate because the back of our house, almost the window of it was opposite the kitchen where they prepared and most mornings I was allowed to go into the kitchen with a dish or plate. I can’t remember whether it was a plate or saucepan or what it was,
and Bob the cook used to give me a couple of ladles of porridge into it and I used to carry it and it was always something I’ve never forgotten because Bob the cook had sort of cerebral palsy or something, he had the shakes. And I used to hold this pan and he used to bring the ladle out like this and I was always terrified that I wasn’t going to catch the porridge because he shook so much so that was,
that was a side issue and occasionally the window would open from the bakery and they would give us a slab of cake so we probably got a few things that some other people wouldn’t have got beaus of our proximity to the kitchen and the fact my father worked there. My father was house master there. His responsibility was the well being of all the students there. All teens, in their late teens and a very difficult
time and they used to call my father ‘Snip’ was because one of the jobs he had was dealing with, if there were any minor injuries. The nearest doctor was in Gawler, so any minor injuries he would patch them up and that sort of thing, and I don’t know if he used to say, “Well snip that bit off,” or what but that’s how, I don’t know how he got his nickname exactly but they called him ‘Snip’ because I think he had to do the dispensary there and there was some sort of connotations there. I don’t know
what it was. They called me ‘Little Snip’ later on so but I can remember going to school. Kangaroo Flats school. I can remember some of the families there from nearby farms. I remember the Dallas family. They had eight children I think and Sunny Dallas is one of the boys of the family he used to have milk the cows
by hand and them walk the 3 miles to school barefooted. Some of them lived fairly, basically, but I don’t remember anyone. I suppose the country life. The things I remember most - Bob the swaggie [swagman, sustenance worker] used to come around regularly. He called around regularly and he came with his pack and mother always used to give him a meal
and he used to chop the wood for us or something for his tucker and he got to be a part of our life really because he turned up every couple of months or something and Bob, at the door and Mum used to give him odd bits of clothing if she had any, but mostly he just came for a feed and there was a derelict building not far from the farm where the swaggies all used to call in there as a posting, a place where they all stopped
and bedded down for the night. Very rudiment. There was an old stove there where you could see they used to do their cooking and things.
date that I ever had. When we were at Hall Bankshores, a girl used to come in every morning. Where we were in the drawing office there was a, the members of the office used to have to come in and sign in and the table was there. We used to see this girl and this girl, her nickname was Betty Scooglebet, but Irene her name was and all the boys used to perve on her and she was a bit of a good looker
and one thing or other. And somehow or other. Don’t ask me how but somehow or other I was one of the boys that got a date with her to go to the pictures and I can remember being at home and putting brill cream on my hair and sort of doing things. And it was all so wonderfully, looking back on it now it was all so wonderfully, what’s the word, simple and harmless.
I think I probably, I think I probably got a kiss I don’t know but I can remember walking along with her with my arm around her and her breast sort of bouncing on my hand and I thought that was sort of heaven. I don’t know if that’s suitable for recording, but anyway, that was my first date that I ever had, and it really didn’t come to anything in the long run. So I didn’t have any really
serious, serious liaisons with a girl. None of the girls at the church I used to go to. I used to go to St Augustus Church and there were a number of girls there. We used to go dancing. I had a friend Tom McKenzie who has been a lifetime friend of mine and still is and he and I learnt dancing there and I knew a girl Sanders. She had some relationship
to my mother but I don’t know what it would be. A distant cousin or something and she came to teach us dancing in this thing. You know one, two, two, one, two, two and all this business and I can remember Tom and I going there and she was very, very well proportioned and she had a low cut dress and we couldn’t concentrate on our dancing because this was the closest proximity we had been to a buxom
woman and looking back on it all she, I think she sort of teased us a bit. I think she sort of enjoyed all these kids, you know, and the funny thing about it I wrote a little something about it in my little book and a friend of mine who is dead now, Gil Barclay, he was a friend of hers and he said, “She read all about that in your book and she laughed. She thought it was great.” So I didn’t offend anybody by saying so, but that was a…
So by the time I went away to the war I was pristine as far as any experiences with women at all really. I might have a kiss or something but that was the best I ever got.
the superintendent of the gas works at Broken Hill for about 30 years and my mother’s father and he, I think, in fact, I almost sure of it, helped me in addition to the scholarship I got in sending me to college. I think without his help I think I probably wouldn’t have got there. I think he either paid some part of it, the fees or whatever so he was a help to me there and he lived with us for a while and of course he was
an Englishmen born in Lancashire and so was my grandmother. That’s another story and they, when war broke out I can see us all sitting around in the lounge when Mr Menzies [Prime Minister Robert Menzies] announced that Australia was at war. I can remember it as if it were yesterday. So and there was absolutely no question about it that if England was at war we were at war. You know like never that sort of feeling of distinguishing ourselves from
Britain or anything at that stage. You know my grandfather talked about the old country and all that sort of stuff and my grandmother used to say, “Pass me the bootter’ and we’d say, “It’s not bootter, nana it’s butter.” And she’d said, “I don’t say bootter, I say bootter,” and it used to be a joke in the family because she had this Lancashire accent even after all these years and of course, my father was born in England so there was never,
we just took it as seriously as if it was happening to us as well as England so no question about it.
father’s mother was named Perya and the family there related, we were always told that their family was one of the Huguenots that came across from France many years before but the name had French connotations and that was the understanding of how it happened but yes, they were English. My
father, my grandfather, my paternal grandfather was quite a different man altogether to my maternal grandfather. He is my father’s father. My father was why he was a quiet and dependable sort of bloke he was given, when the family came out on the boat from England, my paternal grandfather came our first
and went to Broken Hill. He was the original sort of entrepreneur. He was always going to be a millionaire and he never quite made it. He did, he had these wonderful ideas of how the family was going to make money. There are one or two good stories. I don’t know if we have the time to tell them to give you an idea of what he was like. My aunt was telling me once when they lived at Folkstown down in the south of England, the Kaiser was going to make a visit
to England before, of course before World War I this was and my grandfather decided, he had these three daughters, and he decided, he found out what the route was that the party that was with the Kaiser was going to travel and he got them all dressed up in special-made uniforms and made hundreds of cakes and different things and put up a stall on the corner where they were going to make a fortune when the Kaiser came
past and they had all this, did all this baking and everything and they changed the route and the Kaiser didn’t come and they had all this food that they had to dispose of. That was one of his harebrains [harebrained schemes] that went bad, but he bred dogs. He was a boot maker by, I think he was a boot maker by trade and then he went into photography and he set up a studio for photography. This was all in England before he came out and then he got the bug,
whether he heard like a gold rush was on or what, silver rush on but he just left all the family and went to Broken Hill and said, “I’ll send for you when I’ve made,” and he staked a claim of land, took a lease on like a hunk of land out from Broken Hill which subsequently turned out to be one of the parts where one of the mines was there but like and my, then eventually he just sent for
the family and my father was just 21 then and he had my mother and his sisters and the young brother and he sort of had to organise and bring the whole family out. He had a fairly heavy sense of responsibility at that age really because while grandpa was just busy out here thinking he was going to be a millionaire here in Broken Hill and so that was just
how my mother. He was very easy and I’ve got pictures there. He started the Buffalo Lodge or something in Broken Hill and he was the founder of it. He was a bit of trade union man which but apparently he got disillusioned with the trade union because they sort of striked and were doing things that he didn’t approve of too much and he abandoned them, but he still sort of stayed
as a staunch sort of man up in the lodge up there.
we were fighting for the free world, for the. We were fighting for, I suppose we were fighting for Britain but at that time we were starting to get a hell of a lot of information about Hitler and what he was doing and of course he’d sort of, it was going. All the information we were getting was that he was gradually taking over the inland part of Czechoslovakia and
then Poland was the last straw sort of business. He was obviously on a world conquest, certainly on an European conquest at that stage, and that there was no reason to believe that down the list Britain wasn’t one of the targets, and I think we all just had that sense of responsibility that when Poland, they invaded Poland, and the stories were
still sort of coming through how the Panzer Divisions [tanks] were going to run all over the place. Apart from there is an element of fear, that this a bad influence, that there was something terrible happening over there. That people were being killed unnecessarily. That there was that reason for Britain in standing up for all those other people who were free in Europe
and I don’t remember having any doubts about the fact that we were on the right side doing what had to be done. We accepted the what was said to us and everything like that.
I made up my mind before my 18th birthday that when my 18th birthday came I would enlist in the air force if I had the opportunity and on the day of my 18th birthday I got on my pushbike at lunchtime at Hall Bankshores and rode up to the recruiting centre at North Terrace and walked in and said I wanted to join the air force. I’ll tell you how naïve I was.
The sergeant said to me, “Yes certainly, how old are you?” and I said, “I’m 18.” “Yes, that’s fine and what do you want to do in the air force?” and I said, “Well do they have any draftsmen in the air force?” I never went in there with one moments thought that I would be considered to be air crew and he just, first thing he put in mind, he said, “A young fellow like you if you pass all the medicals, you’ll
probably be drafted for air crew. For flying.” And I thought, that was the first thing that I was sown in my head that I would fly an aeroplane, and everything so I went away quite stunned about all this and following on that a lot of my friends, we had to have an Intermediate Certificate to start with. To follow on I got on my bike and did this and I rode back to Hall Bankshores
and I thought, “Well I’d better tell the boss that I’d joined the air force,” and I went in and Mr Smith was the big cheese [boss] and I knocked on the door and timidly went in and I said, “Mr Smith, I’ve just joined the air force.” “You can’t join the air force. You’ve got a restricted job here. We need you here.” And I said, “Well I’ve just joined up.” And he said, “Well, I’ll fix that,” and he picked up the phone and he rang and asked for the CO [Commanding Officer]
of the recruiting depot. Neil Adams was his name. “Get me so and so.” And he got on the phone and I remember him saying, “Well we’ve got this young fellow here. He says he’s joined the air force. Well he can’t go. We’ve sort of got him here. We’ve got a big job on.” Halls Bankshores were getting contracts for making shells and different things and he got really quite bombastic with this bloke and he must have been speaking to some officer in the air force and I can tell
that he must have said, “Well, is he indentured to you? Is there any reason why he can’t?” and I could see Andy Smith getting less and less confident and one thing and another, and I could tell by the tone on the phone that he had been deflated a bit and when he put the phone down, “Well anyway, why do you want to go and do a thing like that? We want to keep you here.” But he couldn’t stop me like from the way it all went and
the fact that I’d never signed anything. So, eventually he came around to accept it like and he wrote me a nice reference and that sort of thing but my first reaction when I joined the air force.
I guess, well you see although I didn’t do. Although the Battle of Britain was on the way then that was in 1940. Although the battle was getting a lot of publicity of course. That gave me some idea that the air force was going to be but the funny thing about it I never thought that I was the material, that I was going to be a pilot.
I had much more humbler ideas than making a contribution as a draftsmen that I had been trained at and but the air force, I think it must have been some subliminal because the air force was getting much more publicity at that stage than the army was. The Battle of Britain was on in 1940,
and I didn’t know it, but Kay was up there herself that year. So I think that was why I…I don’t know. That’s the only thing I can assume, because I didn’t, we weren’t seeing much about the air force in that later itself like. There weren’t blokes running around in air force uniforms like. I don’t know why. I had been flirting with the reserve,
army reserve. I had been going to a few night meetings and different things with them because a friend, a fellow who worked in the drafting office at Halls Bankshores was involved in it, but despite all that I joined the air force. I think I must have been something to do with the fact they were higher profile in those days or.
you might get into situations that you might, especially with girls that you mightn’t be able to handle and don’t know what to do. If you are in the situation where you feel things getting out of hand, just say to yourself ‘what would I do if mother was here?’” And this is one of the jokes of my life, because it was just a joke
to be thinking, “What would I do if mother was here?” So I used to tell everybody, like when I got to England, I had two big things that made me nervous and one of them was when the Germans were chasing me in the air and the other was wondering if mother was there when I was on the ground. So that was mother’s advice, that to tell me just to think she was there that I was going to use her as a pillar of righteousness if I got into trouble,
but before, the night before I left she put up a stretcher in the spare room and Dad was detailed was probably the right word, poor Dad, was detailed to come in and have the last advice to his son going to war and I can hardly remember one thing that he said to me. Certainly not what I can remember about what mother said, but poor Dad was embarrassed and he didn’t know,
I don’t think he knew what to say himself and he was quiet. We probably talked abut something but I don’t remember him saying anything ringing in my ear like mother’s did. But so that was mother said to me before I went. It’s always been a sort of a good, if I’m talking to any of the Widow Clubs or anything they like that one for a start. They give them a bit of an idea, a bit of a light note to start my
war career on. Mother’s advice.
was done on age. I think there were a number of criteria some of it was done on age I think. I think some of the older, but now always, some of the older members went away who had been school teachers or whatever. Some of those I think never got the opportunity to train to be pilots. They obviously thought they were sort of studious enough to be observers which needed
the range rather than the motor skills so a number of the ones that went away with us in that batch finished up as observers. A number of them were the older ones because when we went away I was 18 and those that were 27 or 29, I thought they were my grandfathers or something. The age difference was huge and we used to call them ‘grandpa’ and stuff like that if you were over
27 or something, and so, but some of those men. But then I think some of them. We had tests and that that we had to do about things we were being taught and I think on the results of some of those tests, they assessed on the mental capacity, but I don’t think that was, even that was the number one criteria. I think there must have been some. We had
corporals in charge of each hut and we had sergeant majors and we had lectures and I think the results of all of their assessments of us had some affect. Quite a lot, quite a number of them went to training, flying training school and subsequently didn’t go on with it for one reason or another. They were found not to have quick enough reactions or they got sick
every time they went up or they had some complaint where they, sinuses and headaches all sorts of things or clumsy, just plain clumsy to be a pilot. Some of them got scrubbed after we got there but most of the decisions were made while we were at ITS. Some of them were even posted straight to gunner school, air gunnery schools and things in the eastern states.
After a while I was just posted to Cunderdin where Tiger Moths [de Havilland Tiger Moth training aircraft] learnt to fly to be a pilot and I knew if I, that I was graded as a pilot. I knew that before we left Pearce. Most of us knew what we had been graded at and where we were going next and some of us went to the eastern states and some of us went to Cunderdin. A majority
of us were pilots went to the pilots course I think. The ones that went over with us and that’s where I learnt to fly at Cunderdin and my instructor there. I think I did seven to seven and a half hours or something solo before I was sent out in a plane by myself, and no one can describe how to tell you feel when you fly an aeroplane for the first time by yourself. That’s a little bit of a high, and I don’t care what anyone says.
was very good and very quiet, reliable and just took things. Didn’t get excited or didn’t swear at me or one thing and another and he was very good. I think I was very fortunate. He was a good instructor, but there was still a sense of wonder about it and we were taught to do rolls and loops and one thing and another before we ever went solo
and sometimes we were doing them and if it came out all right it was a bit of miracle like. With no experience to draw on we didn’t know if we were passed or whether we weren’t. The instructor sort of had to say it but on the whole I sort of felt as if I got the hang of it fairly well and doing it in about seven hours wasn’t too bad.
Some of them did it, I don’t think many of them did it under seven hours, but some went 10 or 12 hours before they were considered to be safely on their own. But yes oh the instructing part of it. I think a lot of the experience in learning to fly depended an awfully lot on the instructor they got. Some of the instructors were sort of thought they were doing the right thing by trying to be over-critical.
Some of them pricked their confidence early for fear of being overconfident and it hurt, I think. So hearing some of the other stories of the others some of them got instructors that they didn’t hit it off with very well, and I think some of the instructors were a bit frustrated teaching us to fly instead of going away and fighting in the war and they took it out on their pupils a bit sometimes. But on the whole I think most of them
did a very conscientious job. There were definitely clashes of personality at times. They didn’t get on at all with their instructors, and it may have been they weren’t very competent, I don’t know, but the instructors got blamed that they weren’t getting on as well as they hoped but so that was one of the things, but I was fortunate in that regard. I think I had a very smooth passage in going solo.
And how, describe flying solo for the first time.
Well you have little milestones in your life and achieving things and that was, at the time I hadn’t, I had driven a car. I hadn’t driven a car, I’d ridden a motorbike. Not a lot, but a bit, but I think I had driven a car, but I don’t think I even had a driving licence for a car. I may have done. My grandfather
had a car and my father had one but to be flying an aeroplane was a grade above all that and it is quite an amazing sort of feeling of power or achievement or what, I don’t know how you describe it, but it was certainly exhilarating and I thought it was really great, and I knew I still had a lot of learn because there were dangers there because one or two
of the blokes had a bit of a prang [accident]. The Tiger Moth was very, a very safe little aircraft and if you had a good head wind when you’re landing your ground speed was so slow you had time to do things. The wind and control in a strong wind was a bit scary because you need help even on the ground sometimes to taxi them but no, I thought I was doing rather well.
Just a first tinge of confidence I think.
found out what boat we were on and it was all supposed to be secret when we were leaving and all that but we got on a boat in the end called the Awatea and went our first port of call was Auckland, New Zealand and we arrived there on Anzac Day and the, we all formed up on the wharf and we walked straight into an Anzac march and we were all straight from our
training and all in our uniforms and everything, and we put on a show for the Kiwis that we would never forget. We made sure no one was out of step or anything and the New Zealanders were just marvellous, making offers to us to go home with them and what have you. Go home for dinner and stay and all that, and the process of it all, when we broke up, a young fellow came up to me and said that they’d like myself and Duncan Calwell,
a friend of mine. He wasn’t one that went away with me, but I met him over there and got friendly with him, and they asked us to come home with them for a meal that night and told us what tram to get on and when and that sort of thing and they left us then for the afternoon and we accepted their invitation and we went into the pubs for a drink. You know at 18 and a half I’d never drunk two beers in a row, and we went in there and they
had this light bitter and there were pints of it being shoved down and, “Come on Aussie,” and we finished up with all this beer in front us and drank too much and got a bit whizzy and had a terrible ride in the tram on the way out there and felt quite ill and they realised when I got out there that we’d both had a bit more than…and they were marvellous to us. She was just like a mother to us and the young boys and they let us
have a lie down for a while before they brought the meal out and all this business and they turned out to be lovely people, and they arranged to pick us up the next day and take us down to Rotorua. They had a big old Humber car and we went down there and the things I remember most. Well Rotorua of course was an interesting sort of place to go to anyway for young people to go to first with all the hot springs and everything but on the way back, I was sitting in the back seat of this Humber
with the bloke’s sister on one side and her girlfriend on the other and it was quite cold and we had this overcoats and things on and I took my turn in kissing the girl on one side and one on the other. We were all kids, you know, and we had this sort of exciting little trip back. It was all just fun, but subsequently, about years and years later, about 30 or 40 years later I went back and met them. Anyway, so we saw
Rotorua and we went on the Awatea went on to Fiji and Fiji was interesting. It was an interesting place to go to and the whole the city and the commercial side of it was taking over it. The Indians ran all the shops and all of that and the native people seemed to be more in the countryside and all that sort of…We had a happy time there just for a
day and to and then we moved on. We went to Vancouver, Canada was the next stop and at that stage we had no bother at all with the trip over. I can’t remember any crisis or anything really. That was really straightforward. We arrived in Vancouver and then we got on the train to go through the Rockies [Rocky Mountains]. In my case out to Saskatchewan
and where we were by train and on the way through we stopped at Jasper and a lot of these places in the Rockies and got out and had a look around. It was all a real Cook’s tour [comprehensive tour], that part of that. On our way there were things worth mentioning on the way. We were fed in the cars while travelling. It was quite a long journey and
they brought a 4 gallon bucket of peas and a 4 gallon bucket of this and potatoes and we had these meals and we all arrived in Yorktown in Saskatchewan with terrible diarrhoea and everything. We had this terrible grub that was, I don’t know what was in it or what happened, but the first two nights of our new station in Yorktown we were just queued up all night at the toilets. I can remember everyone was out of bed with diarrhoea. The whole lot of us.
We all got it so it just wasn’t a good start to our trip there, but Yorktown was a small town and we were the first lot of Australians to arrive there and the whole town turned out to welcome us and they were just marvellous. We couldn’t ask for a better reception from the local populace there. They were marvellous while we were there,
and it was really good, we were flying Harvards, which was an aircraft, a very nice aircraft to fly, and our instructors were very good pilots and very nice blokes and myself and Duncan Calwell and Gil Barclay that I mentioned before that left from here had the same instructor over there, Sergeant McKenzie, who turned out to be one of the better instructors I think there, and
I must say by the time we finished at Yorktown, I thought I was God’s gift to aviation. We were so confident. They were beautiful aircraft to fly. We were doing flick rolls and things we should never have been doing and low flying when no one was looking and things, and it only towards the end of my stay there that one of the blokes killed himself doing flying, doing night flying or something. They were doing night flying
and one of the planes went in and he was killed, and we then thought perhaps we’d been a bit stupid. This could be dangerous if we are not careful, and the first sort of alarm bells of any sort and those alarm bells are what keep you alive eventually. Like getting a fright is an example of what not to do.
and I think the one that I remember most was learning, I think they called it radio or communications which we were supposed to learn, all these different sorts of radios and how to work them and I used to go to sleep and the teacher that we had there. I suppose he was a flying officer, he used to throw chalk at me and that and once when I was so sound asleep he got the bloke behind to stick
a pin in me and he woke me up by sticking a pin in me and I woke up and wanted to kill him, and I remember I had this bit of an altercation but the point I’m making is, I was so tired. Well I was so tired I found it difficult to stay awake and of course when it came to the examination time I knew that this, he was always having a bit of a shot at me because I was dropping off all the time in the lectures, so two days or a day or two before the exam I just got the papers and
sat up half the night and swatted them, like, and got every page I could, sort of see the diagrams, and when I went into the exam I got 90 something percent and he never got over it, and probably a week later I couldn’t remember half the things. But that was the sort of thing I remember, just being there, but as far as that goes but as far as the flying goes it was marvellous and I think we learnt a lot. We finished up doing so called night flying
in the harbour before we left there, and when I left there with my wings I thought I was on the way to being a pilot and I thought I was God’s gift to aviation there for a while.
Did you ever get into trouble for anything?
Not there I think. No we had a wonderful time there really because the girls all chased us there. We could have got into trouble with the girls. Actually I remember going once with a girl that I just had a date with one night. I don’t know she worked in a milk bar or something but her parents almost went to pains to try and sort of compromise me almost. They were that keen.
It was almost like a isolated little town out the middle of nowhere and I think these blokes coming from Australia, and one thing and another. I think Malta was a bit the same. Malta when we were there was a terribly poor sort of place and most of the girls there if you wanted to get somewhere you had to marry someone and get off the island you know. A bit the same there, and I got the wind up a bit anyway
because one thing about me being naïve, you get into situations you can’t handle and you squirrel a bit you know. It’s a bit of a safety valve thing you know. So I kept out of trouble there a bit. I went out with a few girls and a kiss and cuddle and that’s all, but I always remember one of the times when I showed a sign of cowardice
was when the train pulled out when we were leaving there and I had these two girls were both a bit keen on me and I hid in the toilet until the train was moving and then opened the window and waved goodbye to them both. I thought I was going to be a bit embarrassed. It, that’s a stupid thing but that’s what happened anyway, and I thought afterward, “What a naïve coward you were.”
So that was the end of it.
much. I didn’t drink much at all and I can’t remember over indulging at all. In fact, Canada was, drink laws were quite queer in those days. For a start, I don’t think you could buy liquor in hotels or anything. They had liquor stores that were only open certain hours and certain days of the week even. Even, I remember in Halifax before we left. They obviously, they didn’t have a pub-sort of complex
like we have here. I don’t even remember going into a pub much and just drinking. We bought a, we put together and for $30 we bought a 1936 Chev [Chevrolet] or something. A little old Chev, an ancient thing, and we painted names and things all over it and we used to go out shooting rabbits and things like that. We did that rather than we ever did drinking there, and I don’t think we were ever encouraged to do, I don’t think.
I think it was part of the business. I don’t think we were off the camp a lot at night because they had a pretty tight schedule for us and we weren’t encouraged to play up while we were learning to fly and one thing and another. It didn’t, I didn’t remember. We were allowed relaxation but drink was never. I can’t ever remember having a decent drink in Canada. It’s funny isn’t it? Not there and not, it wasn’t a part of our life anyway so.
But the Canadians would be proud of that I suppose. Got the Australians through dry.
was the capital of Canada and we went there and I think interestingly enough the John Gordon who was the head of the recruiting centre here in Adelaide at that time had the job of being in Ottawa and we went in and he said, “I don’t know if I’m supposed to tell you but you blokes got your commission.” He did give us a sort of a matey sort of indication who got their commission and things
and that’s the first time I heard that I was going to be a pilot officer. That was fairly exciting news. Fully 18 years of age, and then we went to, from there still with our airmen officer unit, still a sergeant we went onto Toronto and saw Niagara Falls. While in Ottawa, a family there, we stayed there for… We must have stayed there for several days because an Ottawa family sort of befriended us
and we went horse riding and one thing and another with a couple of the girls they had there, and so they were very, very nice to us and so after a few days there we got a relaxing time. Inksters their name was. I don’t remember what Mr Inkster did, but all their friends seemed to be, they lived in a very nice home and they befriended us. Duncan and I stayed there and then we went down
to hired a car and went to Toronto. Drove down to Toronto and went and saw Niagara Falls and had a bit of trouble learning to drive on the right-hand side of the road I remember once instead of going right like that we sort of went like that and did a figure of eight and the policeman pulled us over and he saw who we were and he shook his head and said, “Don’t do that here in Canada, lad.” But no real
issue. He just sort of put it down to the fact we were Australians and didn’t know what we were doing. I saw Niagara Falls and that was marvellous. A real experience to see. One of the real world wonders in a way and from there we moved onto Halifax. Well Halifax was where we waited to embark on the. Halifax was the scene of quite a lot of problems that cropped up with going across
from Halifax to England by boat. On one occasion the Australians all just went on strike and refused to get on the boat because it had been carrying out Italians prisoners and hadn’t been cleaned out properly. I think all the others the poor English buggers that got on. they weren’t game to go on strike and I think the Australians led them all off and I think the New Zealanders were in on it as well and they refused to go until the boat was cleaned or another boat was found. It was unheard of in a wartime, having a strike
but apparently the conditions were absolutely terrible. They had been brought over in the hull and the place had never been properly cleaned out and it was like a floating latrine I think and they just refused probably rightly so and anyway the conditions improved and we got on a little boat called the City of Broder which I think was about 28 or 30 of us. I think we were all officers. I’m not certain
but I’m pretty sure we were all officers on board it. We were the only passengers. It was only a little freighter that used to run from England to Bombay or something, an Indian run and we went across the Atlantic in this big convoy. We first of, went out. There was fog everywhere and all we did the first day was just blown horns all the time. Everyone lost everyone and then we formed up into a convoy. A big convoy and we were
the second last on the left hand side and behind us was a Dutch freighter and we, during the days and nights were fine. We went all over the place. Three weeks we were getting to England and during that time we went not over, around Iceland and right up to Iceland and back, and most of the time we slept in our clothes because submarines were around. And interesting point there - we had the destroyers that
convoyed us, looked after us were American destroyers that were given to the British under the Lend Lease or something or other. They were old American destroyers manned by British crews and they escorted us across, and thank god not a ship in our convoy was sunk, but in the one before and the one afterwards they lost quite a few. We were lucky but…
it was quite a nice aerodrome but the training that we did there was a bit funny in a way. The first thing we do is, that the did with us while we were there before we had been there very long was a little Miles Magister and a miles majestor is a little single engine open aircraft, low wing aircraft. A funny little thing to fly. Like a Tiger Moth. Same engine I think as a Tiger Moth, and they took us to
a what they called a satellite aerodrome to East Fortune and we had to go down there in the evening and then at night and do circuits and bumps and I was terrified because the first time we went there it was drizzling with rain and in those aircraft you’ve got no what they called artificial horizons that they have normally in more sophisticated aircraft, you know, you’ve got to turn and bank. And we were up there in these little wee things and pottering around in the rain
like and the dark and I thought, “Well, if I don’t kill myself here, I never will,” but it was a little bit of a thrown in the deep end sort of learning process. I think all of us were glad when we got back and the Defiant they had sort of sophisticated, artificial horizon to know what position you were in but to turn and bank in the funny old thing. You had to learn to fly in those because they are a very
crude way of night, instrument flying.
great lessons of my life flying up there. I was up there on my own one day and the weather was fairly bad and it was overcast and the cloud cover was fairly low and I had been flying around for quite a while and the radios and the information we used to have when we were flying there was normally zilch or near enough to zero. You’d turn the radios on they were only HF [High Frequency] radios and not VHF [Very High Frequency] like later on
and you’d hear the BBC [British Broadcasting Corporation]news or something or music instead of what you wanted even to talk to base and they were very erratic and I got sort of lost and wasn’t too sure where I was and there was no way I could find out on the radio so I thought I would fly out east and out to sea and come down out of the sea because I knew the clouds were fairly low and I flew what I thought was long enough and I decided to come down and I thought, “Well I won’t
come down quickly. I’ll just circle around and come down slowly,” and I came, I just came of the clouds and I was in a valley with the hills going up in front of me and over the river that ran down to Newcastle and I realised that I could have just killed myself right there. That was a lesson I never ever forget as long as I flew an aircraft, that I made an error of judgment
and I hadn’t flown long enough and I could have even killed myself in these hills. So that was my first lesson about weather and hills and luckily without injuring myself, and straight away I just followed the river back to where I was fine and landed at home and I never forgot it for a long while and realised just how it can, these things can happen and you have an error of judgment and when you are lost and you don’t
know where you are you have to make sure are absolutely over the sea before you come down. So that was a lesson I learned about the weather and it held me in good stead for the rest of my flying career because there was an awful lot of blokes…my, two of my dearest friends flew into the top of the mountain in morning light when in the Beaufighter and killed themselves and they were only about 20ft from the top of it too when they hit it so you have to be
those clouds sort of got stones in them and very bad news. So a lot of people got killed with weather and hills. So I was lucky I learned a really big lesson in flying there by getting away with something I should never have put myself in so when we went to Northern Ireland well the weather over there at times was atrocious. Fogs used to roll in form the Irish Sea and we’d take off and before we landed
we’d be somewhere else nearly because the fog had taken over and it rained and the aerodrome was, had mud everywhere and it was really appalling when we first went there because the aerodrome was new and they had laid the runway down between and it was all muddy. So we started there and Bill Murray went over there with me and we flew Defiants as a team on an operational basis there but we hadn’t been there I don’t know how many months but not very long before they decided
we were going to change to Beaufighters. They realised the Defiants were. For the first time the airborne radar was coming in and the Defiant wasn’t. I think they had practiced with one or two or something but it wasn’t satisfactory and they, but the Beaufighter was capable of carrying an observer with full radar equipment. It was absolutely. It was one thing flying a Defiant and the German firing in the dark
but how you ever find each other was just sheer luck. The only way it was done in the early days was with a search light catching one of the enemy fighters in their lights and then night fighters had a chance but other than that finding them was just hopeless.
thing. There’s no sense to it at all. We all got together. First of all Murray Klysdorf was posted. Murray said to me, they had the, they were given the choice of doing a radar course if they wanted to and in which case they would have been sent away. I don’t think it would have altered his crewing up. He probably would have lost me anyway but he might have got someone else after that. He said, “No, I’m not going to do a course. I’m an air gunner,”
and he was enjoying a life of drinking and chasing girls a bit and I don’t think he wanted to go to a course or anything else so he was posted away and while I may as well while I am here. He was posted to a Canadian squadron and as an air gunner in a Lancaster and he’d been. He used to go and visit my uncle in Manchester where I used to go on leave
and he went there and I told him how to see Uncle George and he went there and Uncle George wrote a letter to be saying, “I’m worried about Murray. He’s got a devil-may-care attitude and he’s sort of sure he’s going to get killed and he’s drinking too much.” Anyway, that was Uncle George, and anyway Murray went to the squadron and sure enough after I don’t know how many, one of a thousand bomber raids he went missing and just missing in action, and
just to finish the story of Murray off, it took me a long while when I came back home years and years later. I looked up and I saw that there was a Klysdorf that lived up at Heinsdorf and I rang and I said, “It’s been a long time since the war and I haven’t seen much of Murray Klysdorf, are you related?” and he said, “I’m a nephew and I’m named after him,” and he told me. I said, “Did you ever hear any more details?” and in 1951
after the storm in the Zeider Sea in Holland their aircraft was washed up on the shore and they found Murray and all his mates. Just their skeletons.
So that’s what happened to Murray. Shit. Anyway back to where we’re crewing up and so Murray so I never saw, of course I never heard any more about him until I heard that news later, so he was one of the ones that were missing and they eventually found him. Crewing up. Well after Murray left they sent a crew of radio observers to the squadron
and we all. I can remember we were all in this room in the dispersal hut and I don’t remember there was no sort of organised. Everyone was talking to one another and anyway this little Scots bloke came up to me and said, “Well have you got anyone crewed up with you?” and I said, “No not yet.” And he said, “Well, can I come with you?” And I thought, “Well he is older than me.” He is five years older than me and he was about half the size
but he seemed pretty bright and everything and well you know. And he’d been in the air force before the war started and he was a bit of an old soldier and he knew the air force and I said, “That’s okay.” So that’s how it really happened. There’s no formal sort of thing. It’s just an informal approach and I think everyone just about did the same. It was almost queer so I was this tall Australian
and I was the only Australian officer in Northern Ireland at that time as a pilot officer. We had two sergeant pilots on our squadron but I was the only officer and I found out later when Air Vice Marshall Cole became the AOC [Air Officer Commanding], he and I were the only two Australian officers in Ireland. So he was an air vice marshal and I was a pilot officer but that’s another story. But that’s how we joined up anyway Bill and
I and of course I fairly soon realised he was a very intelligent young man. I’ve got to be fair. I think, the same as he admitted eventually after the war, that he lived because my skills as a pilot and I would say our success was largely due to his intelligence as an observer and we were a good team as it happened and so we
survived probably because we were a good team really and had the success that we did because he was quick on the uptake and a quick learner. The learning of the radio observer learning to use the airborne radar equipment was a bit of an art. Some blokes got it much quicker than others and the early radar equipment we had was fairly primitive and took a lot of skill
to interpret what they were seeing and he was very quick and so we. By this time I had gone. Then we went. We flew a Blenheim a few times to learn to fly a twin-engine aircraft before the Beaufighters came and we did circuits and bumps in that and we went over to Whittering in England on the grass to do some familiarisation and Bill came with me there and we flew the Beaufighter around and got familiar with it and then back to Northern Ireland again.
We were there only a week I think so that’s how we teamed up. He was a rascal in many ways but an intelligent, likeable little bloke who had been brought up in the real hard times in Glasgow in the Depression years and been a member of the Young Communist Party and all this stuff and had ridden their bikes out and pinched sheep when times were tough and marched in the
hunger marches so he had been brought up where was a commoner, a peasant, but he was so bright that I think he was one of the youngest members that ever went to Glasgow University. He matriculated at a very young age at 15 or 16 or something like that and he just loved reading and he was full of facts and he’d been around a bit and he’d had one or two liaisons and one thing and another so he was very worldly wise as far as I was concerned about women
different in our backgrounds and our outlook on life and our experiences and everything. It was like chalk and cheese in a way. He used to read books in the bath and everything. He was a real professor. He never dressed properly and I used to say to him, “How long have you had that shirt on for God’s sake?” “Well what is the matter with it?” “It’s filthy!” and he’d say, “I’ll turn it inside out and put it on again.” That will
give you a bit of an idea of his personality. That didn’t worry him, but he would be pouring into books and we used to have the most terrible arguments about things. Fundamental things not politics or anything because he read he knew all about Trotsky and all the Russian Revolution and he knew all about that stuff and he was full up to the eyeballs and it was Krups that started the war and all this sort of thing and it had nothing to do with Hitler and we’d have these discussions and I’d go to
sleep at night listening to all these things about Lenin and Jesus and he never convinced me that he was on the right track. I always said to him, “You don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re biased,” and all this sort of stuff and when he used to pull me down by saying, “The trouble with you is you’re just a bloody peasant.” That was his way of putting me down if he was losing the argument, but anyway, with all that
it gives you an insight into him, but he had me reading…I read James Joyce when it was still on the banned list and all that. He was reading books, books, books and they were lying around and he had me reading them and everything. Some of them were quite educational and some of them weren’t so but that was the kind of person he was. He was a very, very interesting man. He knew, you’d have an argument and he’d know when Disreily’s birthday was and that sort of thing.
He was a real he had a very retentive memory. He used to say, “I can remember nearly everything I read and I remember all the rubbish.” So that was, he had this, he said I used to send sparks off, that we used to send sparks off one another and it was quite true. And you reckon I can talk but he so was interesting. At one stage he was on the television in England, this is after the war like,
Ask the Professor. That was the programme and he was the brain trust. People used to send messages in or ring up and ask and he’d answer anything. So that was our Bill. He came out to Australia two or three times after the war so we had a wonderful association really. He drank a bit much at times but we were very fond of each
We had New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans, Englishmen, Australians all on the one squadron and we all shared. When the weather was crook at night we’d sit up and Bob Butts who was a mortician’s assistant from Seattle or something he used to tell us what happened when people came into him and he’d get us all our hair standing on end and
Smithy was a Cockney who used to be full of bloody rhymes and things and a wonderful sense of humour and McKinnon a New Zealander who was a friend of mine and his observer was Mulligan who was a New Zealander and an Irishmen and we had just this wonderful mixture and blokes from Scotland, a flight sergeant there who came from Fife. His family were fishermen and that
and we used to talk about our different cultures and that sort of thing and I remember the bloke from Fife was saying when his father used to get back from fishing up the North Sea at the end of the week how all the men used to just march off the boat and straight up to the pub and he used to put the fish out and put them in the boxes and everything and then by the time he got all that done they rushed home and got the meal ready for the father when he came home and he said, “When my father came home he used to sit
in the chair and my mother used to take his boots off and that.” I mean this was all sort of weird to us and but Bill who was an anthropologist explained to me afterwards. If you were a woman in that situation you didn’t have a man, you were gone. You had no man to support, no nothing, and the man was the most precious sort of thing you could have to sort of get through life and he wished his life and of course they meant a lot of the men as well. Very dangerous work
and when they came ashore they were God there for a while so it was just any women who had a man who was a good fishermen were sort of made and it was all new. I learnt all these sort of things when I was young talking to these blokes.
flight I think. We had Americans there who had joined the war. When we first went there America wasn’t in the war. American came in the war like December like 1941 and we were there sometime before that and they had joined the Canadian air force. The Americans who were keen to get into the war or had flying experience and they joined the Canadian air force and one thing and another and they were interesting characters. Wayne Coil was an
Indian from Butte Montana or something like that so it was very educational and then all this happened. One day we decided to go and have a look at the operations room that was there and McKinnon, Adam McKinnon. He was a lovely man. He was killed later on, but him and I were there and we were, we went in the operations room and we were up with the controller and we looked down and there was all these girls were around this table moving all the things
where all the aircraft with and he said, “There’s a sheila down there that’s got Australia on her shoulder. Go down and say hello to her.” And I said, “Come on. Cut it out, I can’t do that.” “Go on. Go on.” I went down there and said, “Hello Australia.” And I felt like a twit a bit and anyway she said, “Hello,” and one thing and another and that was the first time I met her. We didn’t actually go together for
quite a while. We met each other occasionally at a party or somewhere or in the sergeants’ mess when they opened the mess there and so gradually we sort of got fond of one another and that’s how it all started and eventually I think before. Before I went out to Malta eventually at the end of 1941, this was ‘42. We knew each other for quite a long while before we got engaged and
in 1942 we got engaged in about July 1942 and in December I decided we were going out to Malta. We got asked to volunteer and I volunteered with Bill so we went out to Malta so we were engaged when I went out there so we were away for nine months more or less down in Malta.
order in which we would fly if there was a call for scrambles or anything. I don’t actually remember having a fair dinkum scrambles there. We might have had a few practices and we’d talk at night and one thing or another. We would do quite a bit of flying at night. We practiced quite hard. I think we all got to be fairly proficient at our flying. I think two,
two of the Australian crews killed themselves. One in the Defiant and one in a Beaufighter. The Defiant was killed. I saw him go in just near us and the other one went in, a spin in the Beaufighter. I don’t know why. One or two crews just vanished in the night. Never heard of, never came home sort of thing. But more in Defiants. It still happened in Beaufighters a couple of
times and then their friends Peter Sadam and flew into the moor at night. That was a bit of a disaster. We were all very fond of them so we had our moments. We, I remember going, we went to a few funerals there for blokes in the squadron and I think it probably gives you a bit of an insight into our state of mind about that because I can remember going to one of the funerals for one of the boys
and they lowered the coffin in the grave and the priest picked up a handful of dust and held it over and said, “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.” And there must have been a stone in the middle of it and bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom along the coffin. Well we all had a giggle about that. It gives you an idea of how you shut yourself off from what was really going on altogether. I can do it better then
than I can do it now. It’s true. Old age, I get a bit emotional about some of things because we just had to do that to survive because some of the blokes in the squadron who didn’t drink - I’m getting a bit ahead of myself now - but those that didn’t drink were a bit more of a worry to me than those that did. They went to bed at night and had nightmares about everything that went on the day before and if you had
a few beers and get it out of their system a bit, so you had to learn to let it all sail along without being touched by it. That was just a silly example, but you managed to shut yourself off from it. I don’t ever remember - we did funerals doing slow marches. Every member of a funeral I went to really got at me, you know, because you’re dead really. It’s strange,
but you can shut things off. It was a survival technique I think but I’ve diverted a bit. Gone off the track.
Mosquito drum. The Beaufighter was a good tough aircraft. It was really nice. You sat up the front, the pilot sat up the front in a little office of your own and you had good visibility, and they were tough and the engines were much more reliable in many ways than the Rolls Royce engine. The Rolls Royce engine had a radiator and a coolant and they were cooled like a car like, and
if your radiator sprung a leak or you lost your coolant level, the engine seized up. I had two or three single-engine landings in the Mosquito, but I never had one with the Beaufighter. Even when the got damaged a bit the motor would still get going. The air-cooled motor, because they weren’t reliant on anything else, but the mechanics and the observer had a little world of his own with his radar set and they were wonderfully armed.
When we first started, we had four cannons and six machine guns I think, but they were great to fly. There were several models of them. The first one we flew were Beau 1 [Beaufighter] and they were really good and then we went to later marks but the Beau 2 which came out with Merlin motors on and the 456 Squadron that I was telling you about that we flying Defiants they were given Beau 2
with the Merlin motors and they were a fairly ghastly aircraft in many ways. I learnt to the fly them without any trouble, but they used to get, when you went to take off the torque, they’d swing badly on landing and take off and blokes killed and they spun them around and wrote the carriages off and everything. They had a terrible lot of trouble learning to fly them and you had to sort of open one engine halfway up
and keep it open all the time to stop it from swinging but once you learnt to do it, it was easy but a big trap and once they started to swing if you didn’t nip it in the bud it didn’t matter what you did afterwards they’d keep going. But the Beau 6. They were only Beaus that I didn’t like. Ironically, when I went on rest I flew them all the time. I had to teach people how to fly them but the Beaufighter itself and the Beau 6 we had when we went out to Malta they were a beautiful aircraft to fly.
I loved them. So our conversion onto Beaufighters was good and I thought they were a great aircraft to fly. Reliable.
them got off course and landed on our aerodrome so that was the first few we had of the Americans in the war when they landed accidentally on Ballyhalbert and we were, quite of astonished actually because they had all came with like five rows of ribbons before they even started and they had daggers in their legs and revolvers in their belts and they looked like they were
going to, “Look out, here we come.” But that was all they were sort of nice enough blokes but they sort of had the Liberators and the Fortresses were impregnable you know. I think with the result of all the sales talk like with motorcars about things that they thought they were going to have a good time shooting the Germans down.
But in fact of course they had a lot to learn and then subsequently we were given. I was, while I was up there I was over there I went up to England to where we had a satellite aerodrome to go up at night. This was after the, one of the reasons we went up there was the USA [United States of America] convoys started coming across and we while I was up there
the CO who I got friendly with said he wanted to fly a Defiant. This was early on. This is going back with the start. He wanted to fly a Defiant and I said, “Well you can fly my Defiant and I’ll fly your Hurricane.” “All right,” he said so we swapped and I flew a Hurricane and then why I came down in the Hurricane I said, “I brought that back in one piece, I want to fly a Spit [Spitfire] now.” “All right,” he says so I went and had a fly in a Spit, which was just marvellous. It was like getting on a thoroughbred
after a draught horse, but anyway, I brought that safely down and really enjoyed it and eventually when the American convoy started coming over up to Northern Ireland someone decided that they ought to have some day cover when they were coming in and they sort of said. The Polish squadron had Spitfires had left and left all their aircraft behind and we had all these Spitfires
lying around and so someone said, “We want to get some day cover. Some fighter cover of the convoy has anyone here flown a Spitfire.” So - because I’d had one trip, so that was all right. I volunteered and some others volunteered and there was three or four of us I think and we did 12 hours. I did 12 hours flying these Spitfires over these convoys on day patrols keeping out of range but just keeping that the Germans hadn’t heard about it and were
so I did 12 hours flying over the Atlantic. I should have put into the Atlantic as well shouldn’t I protecting the convoy. So that’s how I got to fly Spitfires and the Hurricane so when they started coming over they sent us up there in the Beaufighters in the end because we all knew when these convoys were coming and
we flew at night there and went on patrols and one thing or another and the Americans, when we took off in the Beaufighters at night the Americans had arrived there they used to come out and watch us taking off and they because sometimes it would be as black as ink and they, all the flying they had done at night over there was done on moonlight nights to see and that kind of thing and they couldn’t understand how you could do it when
it was pitch black. It was quite an admiring audience when took off there but they were coming and they got over there before their aircraft arrived and they had all been flying Airacobras and sort of things and some of them had seen the Spits and they didn’t want to. They didn’t care whether their aircraft never arrived they all wanted to get on the Spits and that.
and we are called to Bristol to the Bristol factory to pick up our aircraft and we went over there and picked up our Beaufighter up and when we got back. Then we had to fly from there down to Portwreath in Cornwall where we were going to take off to go to Malta and Portwreath while we were waiting for us. Every time the weather came good there was something wrong with our Beaufighters. They kept saying they were unserviceable either the motor
or the rudder or something so we were there for two or three weeks I think before we actually got away. We couldn’t draw any pay because we thought we were leaving and we couldn’t get any washing done because we thought we would leave it behind. We were always going the next day and then never did go and it went on for a while so we left to go to Malta with all dirty underclothes and god knows what. We did go in the end but we flew down.
We took off all right. There was just the story or whether I am digressing. There were Americans going down there as well but they were going down in Air Cobra, the Yank called the Cobra and a whole squadron of them took off from Portwreath and the night before we had been talking to one of the young pilots and we said to him, “What, have you got maps, have you done a briefing?”
He said, “We won’t worry. We’ve got a plane to lose them we’ll just fly south and find Gibraltar.” We went away and thought, “Oh Christ,” so anyway they all took off and 1.00 that afternoon they all landed at Lisbon including the bloke that was supposed to lead them to Gibraltar. The Portuguese got a full squadron of Cobras. They put all the pilots and everything on a plane and flew them back the next day
and they never even found Gibraltar. Anyway that was a quick diversion. We flew down to Gibraltar and Gibraltar is the most interesting place to sort of land at because it’s a little bit of a lump of aerodrome there with the sea both sides of it and if you go too short you land in the sea and if you go too long you land in the sea. There’s not much room for error but we landed there and we had to wait there a day I think or two before we took off.
At least one night I think. Maybe two, and then we were briefed.
ringing Kay every night. She thought she was never going to get rid of us because I was ringing her back in Northern Ireland and she’d say, “Haven’t you gone yet?” “No, we think we might be going tomorrow,” and then tomorrow would come. This went on for quite a while. We thought it was terrible because we thought every night we would be leaving and we didn’t. But anyway, the preparation was mainly getting the aircraft air worthy and the weather being right and we had no
worries about flying to Gibraltar. We had navigation equipment and Bill was very skilful at that anyway and I had a good pair of eyes on me. We weren’t going to get lost or anything and land at Lisbon, I can tell you that. So the trip down there was uneventful. We stayed overnight, and the next day the squadron leader came and briefed us on the trip to Malta. This is where all the trouble started, I think, to start with because we had an aircraft
that had, that was the latest radar equipment. We didn’t have all the radar equipment on board because I think for safety precautions they sent some of it in other aircraft and we didn’t, we have the basics of it but not, like a workable one but it showed a lot of interesting things on it that would have been interesting to the enemy at the time. There was a new Mark 10 radar they called it an American design and
so we were sent on because we were scared that we might land in enemy territory, ironically they sent us on this long route where we went over uninhabited parts of the Sahara and everything. Way down, way down the bottom of the Sahara and from there we were supposed to do this dogleg up over the sea towards Malta. In that way we weren’t going to cross
any sort of parts of enemy territory where they thought we would be discovered if anything happened to our aircraft. Well it turned out that the two things, the vital things. We were given a drift sight. A drift sight is you look through the bottom of the aircraft through the drift sift and you look at the ground.
You pick an object on the ground and you can see whether you drift away from it or one thing or another and gives you an idea of how much the wind is drifting you off course and whether you had allowed enough for it or not. We no sooner got overland and they told us it was going to be 5/10. Half cloud and half not cloud on the way there and with the drift sight we were going to be able to check the wind, which we were told was going to be so many knots.
Well as soon as we got over the Sahara there was 10/10 cloud and we couldn’t see the ground at all so we couldn’t use our drift sight, so that navigational tool was sort of gone to us before we got half way and it was getting dark by then and so we headed on. We had to do by dead reckoning. By reckoning we worked out our course on the conditions we were given and the wind velocity and everything and our speed and everything so we did what was called dead reckoning,
and we had to sort of assume that the wind information we got was correct so we set a course accordingly and when we thought we should turn when we thought we were on spot ‘A’, we turned and headed towards Malta. We did all that and when we were getting where we thought we should have been near Malta we started to call up on our radio and our radio didn’t work. So we were left then at that stage over the
Mediterranean Sea in the dark. Didn’t know where we were. Didn’t know where Malta was. Didn’t know where anything was. Didn’t know whether the wind we had been given was sort of correct and whether we were near Malta or whether we had been blown off course and all we knew was that somewhere along the line we were going to die brave or crash somewhere. All we wanted to do was, we sooner crash on land than just because we couldn’t find. We didn’t know where we were.
it’s a different feeling altogether than that awful gnawing away hour after hour not knowing what’s at the end of it, and it’s much worse than having a quick fright. It gnaws at you. I had to make the biggest decision of my life. We didn’t know where we were so first of all I wanted to get down under the clouds so that we could see where we, at least see something. See the sea or something and
work out how to get so I decided. I knew that wherever, we were in the Mediterranean Sea. I knew that we were over the Mediterranean Sea, we went down below the clouds and it as drizzling with rain a bit and we were only about 900 feet before we could clearly see the sea and then I thought, “Well wherever we are if I fly north and just head on that course I’m going to either, if we’ve overshot Malta, we are going to hit Italy, if we have hit a long way over or we are going to hit Sicily,
and unless I am unlucky enough to go through the Pantelleria Straits I’m going to hit the coast of Tunisia so I flew northwest hoping that one of those was going to come up and when it did I was going to turn and fly south, and if it had been Italy I would arrive at Sicily and if it was Sicily I would have been able to find Malta probably and if it was neither of those it was going to be Tunisia, so that’s all the information I had, all I knew was if I flew northwest
the chance that I was going to be able to find any land. I wouldn’t have cared if it was Germany or what it was. I wouldn’t have cared if were prisoners of war, like before we ran out of petrol and had to land. If we had gone down in the sea no one would ever have known where we were or never found us and it would have been the end of everything, so it was a gnawing ghastly feeling really but I was so busy flying. Bill was worse than I was,
because I think he had to just rely on my judgment because he had no aids to help and everything so we flew northwest for an awful long time and eventually we hit land and we didn’t know what it was so I thought if I turned south I was going to find out shortly. I would run out of land at Sicily and I thought it more likely to be Sicily or Algeria or Tunisia than Italy. We really didn’t think we would have gone. As it happened the wind was a lot stronger than what they
gave us and we really finished up somewhere south of Malta in the Mediterranean Sea so when we struck land I turned left and I was frightened to leave the coast. We were getting a bit low on petrol. I had put it on the most economical way I could possibly fly it. I think we flew the Beaufighter for nearly eight and three-quarter hours in the end, eight and a half or something so we kept flying south until at last we came
to this big bay and when I followed it around I could see that it was a big one and when I thought about the map and everything which I looked at and there was only one bay like that and it was in Tunisia the Bay of Sfax and I thought that’s where we must be. We hit Tunisia, so for the first time then for about two hours we knew where we were. That in itself was some sort of relief.
Well when we left the Bay of Sfax is pretty well down south in Tunisia and when we left Gibraltar they had just captured Tripoli. The 8th Army had just captured Tripoli. So we knew that Tripoli was the nearest. They had only just captured it a day or two before so we knew that the nearest Allied land would be Tripoli but to do that to the Bay of Sfax meant that I would have to fly over the sea to get there because and there was some doubt whether I even would because my petrol was getting so low
then so I thought, “Well, I’ll just fly as far as I safely can and even if we had to land we would just have to work it out from there.” So I knew after we had been flying for a while that one engine was cutting a bit and one thing and another and the fuel was getting low so I said to Bill, “We will never make Tripoli, I’ll just have to find somewhere to land.” So first of all we saw a light, which looked like a light on an aerodrome,
so we flew over it. Funny when you think about it, and someone on the ground fired a red berry light at us saying, “don’t land,” or something or other, and anyway it was obviously a German aerodrome and they didn’t want to see us and we didn’t want to see them, anyway, but we weren’t too sure about how far the army might have got so then I said the engine started spluttering and one thing and another and I said to Bill, “We are going to have to land,” so I put the landing light on
in the aircraft and I did a run over the…I didn’t want to land right on the edge of the coast if I could because I knew that was where most of the traffic was, the roads were and I could see the lights of vehicles so I went inland and I thought, “Well if we do land we will try and land in the Sahara away from the fighting area if we can and work out way south.” So I had to fly down while I still had to find out what the sand hills were doing because if we had landed across the sand hills we would have just gone
straight into one and killed ourselves so I put the landing lights on and went down and did a big and I found out which way the dunes were running and I did a loop around and came back again still with the landing lights and decided I would do a belly landing into one of the dunes and by that time the engines were coughing like and I knew that one run would be all I would be able to do and I did this magnificent landing. This was at night of course in the dark and I did a magnificent landing with the wheels up and
we never got a scratch on us. That was here we were after all the trauma and we were alive and then we got out of the aircraft. First of all we wanted to find out exactly where we were because we had flown south a bit and I waited by the aircraft because we knew if we were in enemy territory, we had this aircraft that we weren’t supposed to be in and we were going to have burn the aircraft
and we wanted to just make sure where we were, so I gave Bill my revolver. He had handed his in like a fool. I don’t know if he lost in Gibraltar or something so I gave him my revolver and he said, “I’ll go and do a recon [reconnoitre].” We could see all the traffic going up. It was the Italians and Germans retreating really up the road and he went in there and took my revolver and disappeared for ages and I’m standing there by the aircraft. There was a fairly strong
wind blowing and that was the whole trouble, why were in trouble really, because the wind they gave us was about half the speed. That’s what blew us so far off track, and he went off to do reco [reconnoitre]and after a long time he came back and said that he’d met a German and said to him, “Sprechen sie Deutsche?” or, “Speaka the Italiano?” or something and Bill reckons he shot at him and he didn’t, I don’t know if he knew if he killed him but he shot at him and in the meantime he’d seen a sign up on the side of the
road which said ‘Zuara’. I think it is spelt a bit differently in the Arabic so we knew, we got a map and knew exactly where we were in the first time in a long while and we found out we were about roughly 65 miles or thereabouts from Tripoli, which we only knew, which we knew we were heading for so we decided that first of all when Bill came back,
he didn’t know when he went away whether or not anyone had found the aircraft because we made a bit of a fuss with lights on and everything, we think the Germans might have sent out a search party or something so instead of coming straight up to me he sneaked around like and had a look to see if I was there and he bopped out of the black and nearly scared the wits out of me. I was waiting there and with my eyes sticking out in the dark like this trying to see and he said, “We are in enemy territory and was are in Zuara and I’ve just shot a German
or shot at him, I’m not sure which, so we’ll have to burn the aircraft.” I knew we would have to burn the aircraft so then this big Beaufighter lying there and a box of matches and the wind blowing a bloody gale and everything and so I thought what will I do first. I went and took the petrol tank off and I got a match and threw it in and it went bang so that was the end of the petrol in that tank so I did the same with the other one off which was probably
a foolish thing to do because I think fumes of petrol burn better than what petrol itself does so I put the match in and they both went poof and that’s how much petrol we had left and there none left so I got the bright idea of getting our firing pistol which fired the colour of the day and I fired one on those into one of each of the petrol tanks and that started the fire and I by this time I had my great coat on
and we had the hand compass we had with us and I had the pockets in my great coats full of everything we could think of. Tins of cigarettes we had bought duty free, black and white cigarettes we had bought in Gibraltar. Water bag and revolver and I was loaded up like a draught horse and of we set into the
and I had my case with all my worldly possessions and my log book and photographs and letters from home and things that had been given to me and I started, we started to walk out and when I walked about 50 yards I said to Bill, “I’ll never make it carrying the case as well,” so I went back and threw it in the fire because it had information that would have been interesting to the Germans or something. I thought it might have been so we decided to walk out
out into the desert a far way until we started to head, getting away from any signs of habitation. We passed an odd farmhouse where a dog barked or something with palm trees around and we just had headed and by that time it was just starting to get light. The first thing we came across which gave us a bit of a doubt about what to do was it looked like a trailer that was set up like a signal van like. It was parked out in the middle of,
nothing attached or anything and we didn’t know. It had no distinguishing marks to say that it belonged to Germans or it was Allied or who it was or anything, and at one stage we thought we could get the MC [Military Cross] by locking him up and when the Germans ran out we’d shoot them. And then we thought better of it. We thought, “Well everything’s quiet, we’ll just leave them alone and head out into the desert away from it all.”
A lot of the desert warfare was carried out a mile or so from the coast almost where the roads were. There weren’t too many roads out in the middle of Sahara and so we thought if we get out there we can make our way. We had our water bottle and with our water we thought we were just going to do a trek through the Sahara. We didn’t know how long it would take us but we thought we could do two or three days. We had some rations and a bit of hard rations and an
escape kit which I’ve still got and but so that was. We had a compass, which had a little light on, a torch. A hand compass that was part of the equipment of the aircraft and which we’d taken with us and we could stick it up and see what direction we were heading and at that time when we really needed it we were starting to come light then. Dawn was breaking so we didn’t really need a light and we started walking and we walked. I get the sequence
of it and the hours mixed up a bit, but we walked all of that day. See, sat up at midday when it was a bit warm under some bushes and walked on in the afternoon. I think it was late on that first afternoon that we wondered what was going on. There was this Arab on a horse and a fellow on foot and it was quite a distance away and we didn’t take any notice of them. We thought, “They won’t worry us.” They didn’t seem to be very belligerent or anything,
and then they got a bit closer and closer and next thing we saw the bloke get down on his hands and knees and pointed a bloody gun at us you see and we thought, “Christ what’s going on?” So as soon as he got down, knelt down and pointed the gun at us we zigzagged like. We were zigzagging in the sand with all the gear I had on, I tell you it wasn’t easy, and we did this and then he’d pack it in and wait a bit longer and then he’d
get a little closer and we did a number of this zigzagging before anything else happened and then eventually we realised that they were sort of, they were definitely out to get us or something, and the only thing that we had a little bit of an idea the fact that he wanted to get so close we thought, “He mightn’t have had a very powerful late-model gun and why don’t we keep zigzagging,” and he didn’t want to fire while we were zigzagging apparently and we
sort of did this tactic for a while. I was getting a bit puffed but the chap on the horse, but he had his sword out and every time we caught sight of him he had his sword out waving it about and we thought, “Jesus, what’s going out? This fellow’s waving his sword. We’re in trouble.” And he wasn’t a very nice feeling being out there. We just got out of dying from one thing and we’re going to die another way now so we kept going
as fast as we could and I was getting I was just breathing. We decided it looked like we were going to have a Custer’s last stand if they were going to shoot us and I had my revolver and we had it ready and the German, the Arab bloke with the gun kept creeping closer and closer and eventually he, we went to ground.
We went behind a bush with a little bit of a heap of sand around it and we thought, “We’ll wait here a while.” I had to get my breath anyway and he came up and got behind another bush and we weren’t that far away. Maybe a house or a bit more, and he was an evil-looking bloke too. A real Arab with a great hooked nose and beard and everything and his head would come up over the top of the sand and boom I’d have a shot at him and sand would all fly up
in the front of his face and I’d think I got him and next thing up would come the head again. I think I fired three or four times and this didn’t look like this was going to get anywhere and in the meantime the other bloke on the horse was still galloping around and I said, “I think we’ll have to get in a better position.” Because we didn’t have a proper cover so I said, “I think we’ll have to make a last stand and if necessary we’ll head to the German lines. If these blokes are going to get a hold of us anything can happen.
We’d be better taken prisoner like.” We’d heard all sorts of terrible stories about what the Arabs did, with their women, and read all about it in books about it all and how they mutilate you and all that. That’s why they call it the ‘gooly ship’ and things and Bill, of course Bill knew everything and he said, “Oh Christ if they get a hold of you, the women tear you to pieces,” and it made me run a bit faster. So we decided we would head to the German lines.
By this time I was still a bit tired. I’d had this little bit of a rest while we were having this shooting contest and we decided we were going to do a do or die. We were going to make a run for it and see if we could get to the coast at all and eventually I had gone about 2 or 300 yards and I said to Bill, “I’ve had it.” I’d completely had it. We decided we were just going to have it out there and have it out to the death.
I had been trying to unload some of this stuff, all these Black and White cigarettes in one of my pockets. Tins of them. Tins of 50 Black and White cigarettes and started heaving, I thought, “If I start heaving them out one at a time they might think that worthwhile,” you know, like throwing out your money. They might stop and pick them up but so I started doing that and sure enough he picked them up. The chap on the horse picked them up and
to our surprise, just at the time when we decided it was death or die, like the bloke on the horse galloped up in front of us like and he put his sword away and he was, “Silly Englishie,” and all this singing out and I thought, “What’s going on?” We didn’t know if he was trying to trick us or what and he was smiling and he rode up closer and I still had my revolver ready and he got up closer and by the time he got up really
close to us he looked like he was genuinely, genuinely trying to, we thought he was genuinely trying to make friends with us and so we turned around and he saluted. Mohammed had decided to pack it in too, although he fired one shot at Bill, and Bill said, “I’m shot,” and that was when we were lying down and it turned out to be only a pellet and we found out then that it was only a shot gun
and we were a bit braver. If this go only had pellets, he’d have a job to try and kill us if he gets close so anyway that’s why we thought we’d try and make a run for it. The gun wasn’t quite so fearsome as we thought it might be so he got picked up and he came around and he was with this other bloke and the war appeared to be over. He came over and said, “Englishie salusi, Englishie salusi.” And so the cigarettes,
I think, might have saved our life. It doesn’t save a lot of peoples lives now but the cigarettes were the turning point. They thought we were Germans. They told us after they thought we were Dadeski or something they call them. I don’t know what the Italians word was for it but they kept using this word Dadeski. I think it’s a word that the Germans get known as. I don’t know. But any way the war was all over and they, I put my gun away in my
holster like but I was a bit wary still but the interesting thing about it. God, if I’d shot him we would have been dead and I tried hard to because after it was all over heads popped up everywhere. We thought we were fighting the two of them but there were about half a dozen of them all around ready to pounce on us I think if we had done anything. So you can’t see them. They are very skilled at hiding themselves in the sand, so anyway
we had this big party where we were all mates all of a sudden. I was so done in that he got off his horse and they lifted me up on the horse so I rode this white Arab steed back to their tent and they all took pity on me because I was in bad shape. So there I was next minute thinking I was going to die one minute and there I am riding a horse
back to the tent. Then there’s a bit of a story about. Have we finished now?
and he was a Sheik or son of a Sheik or something but we got back to where Mohammed. Because he had been the main protagonist he was the one who was acting as our host and he was a very lowly member of the tribe and he had this skinny little horrible cavalier tent that we were taken to and we had to sit down in there and they all, everyone gathered around. Half the village came to see us,
and they all sat down in this little tent and I sat here and Bill sat there and Mohammed sat next to me there and we had only been in there about 5 minutes before everyone was, “Salaam, Salaam,” and everything was going on and I caught him with him trying to get my wallet out of my hip pocket and I thought, “Christ, what am I going to do now?” I sort of turned around to look at Bill and at the same time I sort of swung my arm around
and nearly broke his arm and he pulled his arm and he turned around and smiled at me, so I smiled too, and we got over that one all right and he never tried again anyway. And then they made gestures to sort of suggest that I, that it was rude of me to have my revolver here in the tent so I hung that up on the pole there in the tent so we weren’t, and everything they did then. We gave them. Mohammed couldn’t read a word
but the Sheik or whatever he was he could read and we gave him our ticket thing that’s still there and he read it all and then they, the way they were behaving and everything. I said to Bill, “It doesn’t look too bad, does it?” Because we could say anything we liked to each other and they didn’t know a word we were saying. As long as you smiled
like you could say anything you liked and at one stage there after I’d picked my pocket, I wouldn’t trust this old bloke as far as I could throw him and we smiled at one another and we could say anything we liked and no one could understand.
they killed a kid goat and I ate it nearly raw and Bill with all his knowledge of everything said that, “We’re right. The Arab people kill meat for their guests. That’s a sign of hospitality.” He was so sure of all of that that he sort of
comforted me a bit as well and but they were behaving really quite well and everything. Quite a lot of things were happening. A lot of visitors because we were a source of curiosity like and visitors and Mohammed was in his element. He had these two blokes in his tent and all the villages were coming and having a look at us and big talks used to go on between them and everything so we were sort of ‘Exhibit A’, you know.
First of all a few things. A few funny little things happened. First of all they had a tea ceremony which they went through. Mohammed came in with a handful of dried stuff and a little teapot and a couple of cups and he put it on the fire and put tea in it and then he’d let it fizz up and then he’d take it off and let it boil and put more and more sugar and put it back on again until it was almost like an
like a syrup nearly, like a tea syrup really and they had a little glass like a medicine glass and a big ceremony all this was. It wasn’t like casual ‘have a cup of tea’ and first of all he tasted it and he’d offer it to you and he’d say, “Salaam,” and you had to, “Salaam Aracum,” and then you had a sip of the tea and you had this little sip and then the next guest and the next guest and in the order of
preference or whatever it was, but we all had used to take a long while but we sort of liked it. It was sort of sweet and refreshing really. It was like a syrupy tea and we knew that all the wogs had been burnt out of it if there was any like and we weren’t going to get jibby tummy or anything from anything we ate and for that reason we in our escape kit which I’ve got one in there that I’m going to bring out to show you it had two packets in there of Halzodome [?], which is,
we were supposed to take the tablets out and put them in the water. I don’t know if it had chlorine or what it had in it but it was supposed to make the water drinkable if it was doubtful and the other one was Benzedrine. If you were escaping. I should have perhaps taken one when the Arabs were chasing me I think but if you have to swim a river and you have nearly done in you take a couple of these and do a Johnny Weissmuller [actor who played Tarzan] across the river but Bill said
I think we ought to put some tablets in this and he said, well we didn’t want to offend them like so he did it surreptitiously and he got them out of the kit and alongside me and he put these tablets in the water before we had a drink and we didn’t find out. We never slept for two nights like. He had put the Benzidine in instead of the Halzodrome so we were high on Benzidine for the first couple of nights and I couldn’t sleep
and I had this sort of wide awake like that and I could feel all the wogs biting me so that was the first blew we made but we got over that one. But the food that we brought. In the end we lived on dates and raw eggs mostly. They had a meal they used to make out of a sort of wheat meal they mad with sort of rancid sort of fat and as soon as they brought it over my stomach was going,
I was going to throw up. I just couldn’t bear the smell and I used to, they’d try and push it on us and, “No, No. Englishie no.” And we all got over that and in the end they did the kid there was lumps of white floating around in it and they kept pushing it over and I said to Bill, “It looks like fat to me.” It turned out to be white of eggs. They had broken some eggs in it apparently.
four nights I think and four nights and five, about five days. That sort of, that’s what my memory says. I’m not sure of that exactly. I should be I suppose but I’m not it all very confusing but we eventually Mohammed went away with my revolver which I told him I’d lend him and we gave him that chip that we wrote on saying there were two airmen are there and he took that away and
he came the next morning with a bloke from one of the armoured cars that were out doing scout cars an advance party right out in the desert away from the desert really and I nearly kissed the bloke when he came up. A little red fellow, Englishmen came up and said, “How are you, Sir?” and they were from the 11th Tahars [?]
I think from memory, but I’m not sure about the number, but they were in armoured cars and he took us back and we slept that night in a tent with them and then we went to Tripoli the next day. We both got up on the roof of a building and took all our clothes off and we were eaten from about here to here. We were just raw with all the wogs that had eaten me. I think that, I’m a bit susceptible to wogs. Mosquitoes like me and everything but Bill didn’t have any at all. I took my clothes off
and he said, “You poor bugger.” He didn’t realise I had been suffering that bad, but I slept next to Mohammed and he just scratched himself all night it sounded like sand paper, but I think they all came off and they feasted on me.
We didn’t know who was chasing who at one stage but in the end Bill gave me such an accurate position of when he was coming at me head on at one stage that that I managed to swing the nose of the aircraft and just pressed the button and made him fly through. I couldn’t aim at him at that time, I just made him fly through and we got strikes all down the fuselage and he just turned over on his side and he flew just straight, almost straight down and we think to this down that he probably
shot him down so we were never able to prove it so it was claimed as a damage like. We never got that one concerned. They said someone was in a dingy the next day and they didn’t confirm that, so that was a damage, but we reckon we got him. For my first. That was my first combat with an enemy and to be fighting someone that had been trained and had equipment on board similar to what we had was a real battle. It was a tough one for a first up
and we were always pleased that we got out of it as well as we did really, but then the raids in Sicily came not long after that. Well a while after that and we did a lot of trips over to Sicily with armoured personnel and that and show them in moonlight night where they wanted to drop paratroopers and that and then the raids on Sicily began we got fairly busy. We there was
the first one in combat where we, there was a stream of bombers going over to Sicily between Italy and Sicily and we got behind. There were a number of contacts and we got behind the ADAs [Air Defence Area] and I just got my usual distance away from them that I thought was quite safe and then we, the first couple of cannon shells that hit it set off a bomb or a mine
and the most ginormous explosion and their aircraft and everything just disappeared in a cloud of dust and bits and pieces flew back and knocked the windscreen, part of the windscreen and my engine started running rough and there were holes everywhere. Bits of molten metal in my legs and the whole world sort of went mad and I found the aircraft wouldn’t respond to the controls and things so I knew
that we had to bail out and my observer who then was Pilot Officer Parkinson, DCM [Distinguished Conduct Medal], very experienced too, and he yelled out, “We’ll have to bail out,” because some of the bits of the aircraft had gone over near him as well. He knew things were serious although I was supposed to be the captain, I was suppose to decide when we were going to bail out but he said, “We’re going to have to bail out,” and then I spent a time,
you don’t, your time factor in this situation is very difficult but I spent what time I had first of all calling up on the radio saying, “Mayday, mayday.” People were talking on it but that was the first thing and someone will know that we are bailing out and the next thing that happened before I got the aircraft under control or anything. Well, I didn’t get the aircraft under control. I tried to see if I
could but Parky rang up and said, “I can’t find the lever for my hatch.” And I said, “Well I’ve opened mine.” Because as soon as we said we were going to bail out I pulled mine so the hole behind me, the hole in the bottom was open so I said, “Well, don’t muck about. Come up and get out of mine.” Well that was the last conversation I ever had with him and I don’t know now to this day where he was. Whether he got out,
whether he got his hatch out, whether he was in the aircraft, whether he drowned . I will never know but from that point onwards I had no control over the situation and the aircraft dropped a wing and went into a spin, and to get out in the Beaufighter you sit in the centre of the seat like this and when you want to get out of it you have a lever and your seat goes back like this and you get your feet up, you get your heels
up on the edge of the bucket seat and I had my parachute and everything on and you have your hands up here and when the seat lays back you are supposed to be able to lift your legs up out of the seat and drop through the hole. When doing it properly when practicing and all I remember at this stage was I had my hands up and the aircraft was spinning and the G [force] was so great, ramming me in the seat, and the last thing I really remember was
my hands gradually being torn off the thing and that’s when I thought, “Well, you knew you were going to die sometime,” and this was it. “You’re going to die,” and funnily enough the moment when my hands let go my recollection of it was everything went very quiet and because there was a hell of a noise before that. The wind was whistling in, the engines were going and all of a sudden there was this wonderful quiet
and I thought I’d died and then I came to and I was flying through the air and my first reaction was I didn’t have my parachute, because your parachute weighed quite a bit and when you’re going through the air it doesn’t weigh anything and I had to put my hand down and found it was still there and pulled it and it opened and I was in the air long enough to sing out first of all to Parky to see if he could hear me
because I didn’t know if he was out or where he was and I got no reply and almost at the same time the aircraft itself plunged into the sea not very far from me so I must have come down almost as fast as the aircraft spinning like and dropping without my parachute open. I must have been level with the aircraft. It went to sea just a little before I did and the next thing was I had to get into my dinghy.
Before this all happened, before the explosion I’d seen this lighted hospital ship all lit up with lights and a red cross on it like in the distance. We seen that before we even had our combat but that’s all I knew. So I went into the sea and I got into the dingy. I vomited first. I was sick, and then I said a bit of prayer, and then I
realised I was out and then a destroyer came past fairly close to me and I managed to get one of my rocket, not a rocket - I haven’t got the right word - safety thing that we had on our belt and fired a cartridge from it and the destroyer just went straight on, they were busy chasing a submarine or something. I don’t know, they didn’t worry about
me, and I looked up and as his wave came up I could see this hospital ship that was lit up and I started paddling towards it but I don’t know. The dinghy’s a difficult thing anyway because it swings about all over the place but I don’t know whether it was the wind or my paddling or the ship was coming towards me but it was gradually getting a bit closer so as it got a bit closer I fired another signal rocket and
the chief officer on the bridge saw it and they, don’t say drive the boat. A sailor would kill me if I said that, but they brought the ship up right alongside me and dropped a rope ladder down. They sang out to me and I said I was an Australian airmen and the dropped a rope over and then sent an able seaman over to help me up the ladder and that was pretty good.
So that’s how I came to there.
all the parachute gear is lost is a folded little dinghy on top of the parachute which was on a lead that was clipped to my harness and so I still had that and I just pulled that and that was the same. Once you got that out of the packet it was in you just had to pull the lever and it inflated automatically and I managed to climb in that and all this effort sort of wore me out a bit I think was a - in the circumstance I suppose I was in a state of shock anyway
and that’s why I was a bit emotional when I got in there. I did say my prayers I think but yes, it was great to be alive because I was thinking I wouldn’t be. And you know there’s nothing I could do. I thought about it and thought about it. There was nothing I could have done to help my observer any more. I had my chute, my hole open and I couldn’t get his and
its really a sad, terribly sad in a way and he was an experienced observer like and he, in one of the first things you learn when you are night flying all the time is you get so familiar where, you have to be able to turn the petrol on and do this and do that and everything in the dark and you had to know where every knob was in the aircraft otherwise you can’t be shining a torch around to see where things are
and things like that. When I pulled my it opened it straight away and I was completely flabbergasted when he said he couldn’t find the lever for the hatch because I thought he would have been out before me but it just goes to show you. If he didn’t get out of the aircraft it was because of his unfamiliarity of the aircraft, not thinking about it because it was life and death thing
not to do that. That was one of the things that you looked for - the levers. Usually they were painted red or something so you didn’t grab them by mistake. We all sort of thought time and time again what we were going to do if we got into a situation like that and sadly, you know I wrote a long letter as best as I could to his people and never got a reply, which was sad.
we all got around the balcony this man was coming to see us and Noel Coward all came down and Noel Coward was notorious not only for his skills but for his homosexuality, and being butch blokes we were, and he came down and sat down at the piano and started singing Mad Dogs and Englishmen and he was so talented you forgot all about all that
and really enjoyed it. He just sat at the piano and played for about an hour or something we had the whole hospital interested in singing with him. That was just a little bit of trivia really, but soon after that, about that time because amoebic dysentery is awful like. You, I lost a lot of weight and got very weak and was having a lot of back trouble and one thing after another,
but one day we were going out and I’m not sure whether it was just before or after I went to the hospital but they test our aircraft every afternoon and Squadron Leader Edwards came up and said, “I want to take your aircraft. Hop out and I’m going to take this gentlemen for a ride,’ and he got in the aircraft and took off. At the end of the runway at Luqa Aerodrome in Malta was a big quarry and he took off and had an engine cut out on the way out and they just went into the quarry and blew
up in a puff of smoke. So we don’t know if that would have happened with us if we had been taking off, but it was the sort of thing that made you think how precarious life was. He died flying our aircraft that we were just going to take off on, so that was a rather sad sort of little interlude, so things like that happened which are just sheer luck. Some things in life especially in wartime you have control over and some things you don’t
know whether you are lucky or not lucky, and that’s what happened to a lot of people I’m afraid. So I must have been one of the lucky ones.
try to chase them or aim at them or anything. The main purpose was to blow the train up. Hit the boilers and the train. We were reasonably successful doing that but we never went out of our way to hit anyone like that. Not one on one in those particular cases. It’s a bit different with bomber command. They drop their bomb and they can’t see where they are going but that night we could see where they were going.
A German friend of mine said you would have been chasing them, when he was chased by the Lightning he reckons he rode his bike so fast he broke the chain. He reckons he still went just as fast after the chain broke. That’s another story. So we didn’t get in that position where we were aiming. Most of the people. People have bit of a different idea about people. They were the enemy
like. It’s hard to sort of be, I mean even the blokes that I was blowing up in their planes ,they were only young men like myself but they were on the other side and I don’t have any - I don’t get any pleasure out of thinking about that and I don’t think I need to, because at the time we were fighting a war. We weren’t sitting down thinking about it someone’s living room. We were in a war in which
we either had to win or we were going to lose, and we were going to lose our life or we had to take someone else’s. It had to be one. The only thing I can say is just think what would have happened if we’d lost it so that in itself justified that we just had to do what we had to do otherwise we would have lost. So I don’t have any nightmares about that because no more than I would expect them to have nightmares about doing the same with me you know.
But as far as shooting up civilians goes. Doing that in cold blood would be a bit…I don’t fancy that myself either. I don’t think anyone would but I think in most cases when that would happen they were trying to stop transports and things and firing at tanks or trucks or trains or something without specifically targeting the people involved. You are rather aiming at something rather than anybody do you know what I mean?
I don’t know if I have answered what you.
it just exploded in a ball of flame, and actually it was unfortunate from my point of view although I wasn’t that close to it. Because you have to get fairly close at night you see. You can’t sort of see them 500 yards away. You are sort of a few hundred feet away. It depends on how dark or if it was a moonlight night. A dark night sometimes you have to get fairly close and you have to get up really close at some stages because you have to be absolutely
certain it’s not a friendly aircraft or something. You have to be certain that you’ve identified exactly what it is your firing at because I mean nothing to could feel worse than shooting down a fellow Beaufighter or something so you had to take a certain amount of risk in going very close and the risk that they might see you and shoot you down before you had worked out who they were so although we
often went up fairly close often we pulled back so we weren’t too close before we actually fired at them and this one exploded in a ball of flame. I hit a petrol tank or something, and some of the molten metal from their plane hit my windscreen and we got behind another aircraft just after that. Another German 88, which I had identified by looking up through the top, and I couldn’t get my sights on it because I couldn’t see through the windscreen because it was covered with
all this molten metal, so in the end I had to drive for quite a while and knew that if I wasn’t careful I was going to get shot down in getting too close and I tried to look at through the side window and all sorts of things but try and get my sights on it, but I couldn’t. So we had to miss that one but in the middle, I think that night if that hadn’t have happened we might have shot down a couple more but it would have been satisfying from the point of view of our job we were
doing but that’s the only thing, regrets I’ve got really. Made a combat move there but that one burnt very fast and just went down in a ball of flame.
wrong with their aircraft. Not all of them, but there were a couple I can think of that we got worried about a bit because I think they got nervy. And of course all that business was coming under the heading of ‘lack of moral fibre’. If people were reported as unreliable and their bravery was questioned it was a terrible thing. A terrible thing,
and it wasn’t fair either because I think in bomber command, particularly, some of the blokes were having nervous breakdowns. That’s all it was. They just wanted a rest and all that and they were sort of half accused of having cowardice and they called it lack of moral fibre. People used to get accused of it, you know, and for the most terrible reasons. They were just completely worn out,
most of them, so it was a cruel thing. I never thought, I would never, I went to great pains in our squadron, if I thought that was the case, they were to report to the doctor and get a rest or something and they usually come good again, but it’s usually because you are overtired and your nerves jangling.
And we had a thing called IFF, identification friend or foe, and they ground people could see this if we switched on they could see this little thing beeping and they would know it was a friendly aircraft. If one got into their range and we would be on patrol or something like that they would say to us, “Investigate possible
bandit,” or something and they would give us a course to fly because they knew where we were. They could see us and they would give a course to fly and intercept them and when we got within a reasonable range of our radar we used to pick it up and then we used to take it over from them and it was our responsibility to identify what it was and whether it was a friend or foe. Sometimes we used to follow half a dozen friendly aircraft before we found one of them was a bandit, you know.
So a very important part of it. We used to have lessons regularly on the identification of silhouettes of aircraft. Where the exhaust was, where you were likely to see and flames, the shape of the tail was and what they looked like from this angle and that because you didn’t want to make any mistakes. It was fairly serious business before you shot something down to make sure that you knew what you were shooting down. A very important part.
But that’s how we did it. We took off either on patrol if nothing was going on or a raid of some sort we were told to get off the ground as soon as we could. Scramble and they would put us on right on where we thought we would get the trade as they called it. “We’ve got some trade for you,” but it was one on one and when it was on our own radar it was up to us to finish it off
so we used to switch right off the control and talk to one another.
and what to see and one thing and another and because there would be a huge lot of shipping and major battle ships and what have you in the area and what aircraft they expected to be used and when they would be going over and what have you and traffic was just unbelievable. Thousands of aircraft going across and the channel was just dotted with ships by the thousands, literally thousands,
but our main role - the Germans at that stage they had these radio control bombs on them and the radio control bombs could only be used effectively when they would could see the target so they had these aircraft going out carrying these bombs but they had to come out on a fairly moonlight night because it was no good if it was too dark they couldn’t see. They could
stand off out of range of the capital ships anti-aircraft fire and they could let the bomb go and if they could visually see the ship they could guide like they guide like a model aeroplanes they had. Not the same at all but similar and they could guide the bomb towards the target. It was sort of rocket propelled and they could stand off. That was the theory and they were going to go out and sink a lot of our major shipping but where
it fell down, A, it was a moonlight night and that suited us. We could see them before they could see us when we had radar and they used to chuck a lot of this window which are strips of aluminium cut to the same length as the wavelength of their radar and they used to heave it out and the radar that we had at the end of the war were so efficient that it didn’t interfere with us at all. We used to just see this whole stream of stuff coming out and we
would just head up stream and there was the aircraft so they helped us in a way to find them by doing that. In the early stages it was confusing, but in the latter part of the war with the better radar we, it was quite an assistance for us to find them. So we were very successful. We shot down 13 of their biggest aircraft and I don’t know how many others. We shot down 30 or more aircraft over that period over D Day and we destroyed nearly all of the Heinkels, more of the Heinkel
177, which was a huge German aircraft. I shot down two of those and I think we shot down 13 our squadron so we were very successful so we think that by our efforts we could have saved some of the major shipping. That’s what we reckon.
It was really quite remarkable that so much was done without the Germans knowing which day and where. Although it was terrible for some of the poor coots that did that. Some of them landed in the wrong place even then. It was a like a little Gallipoli for some of them. They landed where they shouldn’t have done. Some of the Americans, they landed where there was huge cliffs, where they weren’t supposed to be. They were supposed to be somewhere a bit further along
but on the whole, the Germans, they went to terrific effort to hoodwink them by having dummy raids and into ports and harbour and further up the coast and one thing of another making them not too sure where it was going to come. They must have known that it was going to come but they didn’t know what day, and they were taken more or less by surprise and the build up of it.
You couldn’t move on the roads for transport and gliders in all the paddocks and everything and the build up to it was fantastic, and just that sense in the air that this is the big one and everyone was very, very keyed up about it all yeah. Even all the day fighters even had within a day or two they had white stripes painted underneath
so that when they were flying over the enemy territory they would be straight away recognised by the ground troops as ours. They did that, they had it all ready and a day or two before they slapped it all on. We were going to have it on but because we flew at night it would have been a bit of a waste of paint but all the day, all the aircraft flying over the enemy territory had it and after D Day all had these white stripes painted on them.
Blue and white strips on the base of them so the ground troops would look up and see straight away they were American or whatever it was.
Aces High which explores all that at great length, which I had the honour to be in, and it says that it’s the one thing. The night fighters were almost all one-on-one. You either shot them down or you didn’t shoot them down, or if you couldn’t conclusively prove that the aircraft had gone down, it was damaged or whatever, but in the day fighting it was a different story altogether. The confusion was just incredible
and blokes would be firing at aircraft that had already been fired at and both claiming it, and if you read the stories about the Battle of Britain, the claims at the time was quite irresponsible in a way but understandable, because in the melee the aircraft going here there and everywhere and people squirting at this one and squirting at that one
and then one all of a sudden going down in flames and no one knew it was, who did it, so the claims were very good. In night fighting there was never any dispute really at all about our night fighting claims because we either shot them down or were damaged and probably down. The first one we shot down or the second one, the first or second one we shot down after D Day, we had a bit of a battle with it a 177 and it finished up crashing
in the Cherbourg Peninsula, but just before it crashed we were so low over the cliffs there that I had to pull out and I had to look back and I saw some flames there but I wasn’t game to check but I knew I’d damaged it because I’d seen sparks all over it and but I claimed it as a probably destroyed, but the next day the ground troops reported the aircraft in the exact place where we said it was and we had it confirmed
but things like that. But when it is one on one it is much easier to do things like that than when you have a melee. The fighter claims on the whole are very accurate really.
a little pair of binoculars that if you look through even normal binoculars at night or poor light they gather the light in a bit and you can see a bit better than what you can with plain eyesight. But these night vision goggles, but nowadays it’s been perfected, like, they have infrared and all sorts of things. We had these goggles and if we wanted to use them we could use them
to help identify what were we were following, so we did make use of them but not real…Because by the time we got close enough to use the night vision we could usually work out what it was especially when you’re seeing the same aircraft a few times in the air but we did have them when it was a very important and difficult. We were told just after D Day that the Americans had brought over this
this aircraft called the Black Widow which they were going to use for night fighting and it was a twin-boom aircraft and we had pictures of it and they showed them all to us and they said, “You won’t see them. You won’t see them. They’ve been told they are not to come down below a certain such line in England over the front marker so you won’t see them but we thought we better let you know what they look like.” So next things here’s one of them floating around come down to have a look at the war and
if we hadn’t been told that they were there we would have shot it down because the only other aircraft apart from the Lightning that we knew the Germans had a Focke-Wolfe twin-engine aircraft which was not exactly the same but very similar that we’d never seen before either, and we would have, we feel that we would have shot it down but we looked at it and looked at it and looked at it and I said to Bill, “I reckon it’s one of these bloody Black Widows that the Americans have.”
So I’ve often thought that I would like to write a letter to the Black Widow Association, if they’ve got one in America, and tell them how bloody lucky one of them was that we knew what we were looking at and they didn’t get shot down over D Day, but I’ve never done it.
looking at in the dark just the shadow of them, the silhouette of them because what you tried to do all the time was get the aircraft mainly of the enemy to get it against the lightest part of the sky. Sometimes that was, you would go this side of it to get it up against the lightest part of the sky or sometimes the horizon or against clouds at night or
anything but you wanted to always try and get it so it was between you and the lightest part of the sky. There is always some light source at night, almost always. The stars, when you get a really black night and you can’t see anything but just the stars it is unusual. There is almost always some part of the sky whether the moon set or whether the sun is coming up so your aim was always to get a
silhouette of it against the light and from that silhouette, we had practiced it so much that we could almost tell straight away as soon as we saw that was that aircraft was and also you could see the exhaust coming out of most of them although some of them were pretty cunningly concealed so that was another thing we used to put. The shape of the tailplane and lots of little things. Occasionally, if the light was everywhere,
we would see the Swastika, not the Swastika, but the German Cross on them. Occasionally but not very often. That was fairly rare really. We didn’t that close to them and by the time we did get that close to the rear gunner they could see you and blow you out of the sky so you had to use a bit of. But if you kept in the dark part all the time. When we were stalking them we always tried to stay in the dark part of the sky and have them silhouetted against the light that was part of the whole scheme.
Mosquito was the fastest aircraft - that wasn’t actually the night fighting ones that we had because we had so much equipment on with the radar and so forth and photo reconnaissance Mosquitoes could outpace anything at one stage, but a lot of the German aircraft they had during the war, the jet aircraft and what have you, were superior to what the Mosquito was and sometimes we used to just get behind aircraft and away and we knew that we had struck a German jet or something.
I think a 262 was one of them from memory, so technologically towards the end of the war the Germans were, technology for, aircraft technology and that was at a fairly high level, and if the war had gone on they might have had even better aircraft, so it was always a cat and mouse to see who was in front. Fortunately, I think we stayed in front in the end
with the radar that we carried which made us more effective, but we didn’t necessarily keep up with the - at the same time, we were producing jets then almost and faster aircraft so it was a, you were never in front for long. It was like a horse race. There was always someone else breaking the record. I’ve got a few horses. One won the other day. Sorry.
when you had the opportunity to do so, but I don’t think - Bill and I used to joke, “We are not going to get any posthumous VCs [Victoria Cross],” but we never failed to do our duty though. There was never any thought of ducking or anything, but we never went that extra foolish bit that you might have done earlier in the war. We were just that little bit more reserved. It seemed a waste
to throw your life away, but you were still conscience enough that we would do our duty and we will never do anything less, but as times come you have to make a judgment about what is stupid and what is unnecessarily stupid and that happened at times. I mean, we went out one night over an aerodrome in France.
We were supposed to shoot up this aerodrome and a bloke was supposed to drop a flare over the aerodrome and he dropped it a few miles away or something and he kept saying, “Can you see them?” and I said, “No I can’t see them,” and we looked and looked and Bill said, “I’m buggered if I can see him.” I don’t know what he did, but the next thing he said, “Well I’m going in,” and next, “I’ve been shot up. I’m on one engine. Mayday,” and all this business, and he was trying to be a bit of a
hero himself because he dropped the flare in the wrong place and did something stupid to try and make up for the error that he made, and he wanted us to do the same and we couldn’t see. I wasn’t going in and try and shoot up something I couldn’t see what I was shooting at. So we came home and never fired our guns. I don’t know where he finished up. He either crash landed or make a forced landing somewhere, but we thought he was foolish. He obviously was
showing a bit of bravado to cover up the blue he made when he dropped the flare. So little things like that. We pressed on not regardless but satisfactorily, and some of the jobs, we didn’t have any choice. We just had to do what we were asked to do and hope for the best, but I think a lot of people felt the same way. You can understand, can’t you? The early part of the war, we all thought, “We are going to die.” Half way through the war we thought, “God
we are still alive.” And at the end of the war you see the end of the war coming and you think, “God, we might make it yet.” I think a lot of people went through that. The lucky ones that lived through it. We were lucky to live through it. I was lucky to live through it, I know that.
this club. It could have easily been an advertising gimmick, I don’t know, but apart from some patriotic thing, but the criteria was that you, if you had to save your life by the use of a parachute. It wasn’t a matter of just having a jump out and having
one time. But if you saved your life using one of their parachutes in an emergency, then you were eligible. They sent you a little caterpillar, a little gold…similar to what is on the tie, a little gold caterpillar with the date on the back and they send that to you and they started that thing and then I think the
goldfish club got in on the act a bit, like, I think, and they thought it would be a good idea for everyone who had saved their life in a dingy got a badge. So as well as all that they started this. Particularly in the desert and sometimes in Europe there were a lot of cases in the desert were blokes crashed their aircraft after combat or whatever and managed to, because of the
terrain and the lack of population and whatever, managed to get back to their things and walk home, so someone brought in this later rollers club with a flying boot if you, after combat from enemy territory, you could get home by foot or other means, they called that the Late Arrival Club. But sadly blokes that landed in, now let me think how they did it.
They didn’t class what they called air raiders, I think if blokes bailed out over Germany and got picked up by the Germans and brought home or something like that. I might be wrong there, but there is some distinction between an invader. Yes, that’s right. I’m getting mixed up with prisoner of war. You weren’t considered to be a prisoner of war or be eligible
to claim to be a prisoner of war unless you were actually captured even though you might have landed in enemy territory and got out and were assisted to get out without being put in a prison camp. They called you an invader rather than a prisoner of war and for some reason or other they didn’t get some of the privileges. I’m getting off the track now, but no, if you walked back from the enemy lines after action
you got the…So that’s how it all happened and when we were in Malta. It wasn’t me. I never made the, I never made an application to any of them. It seemed either my promotions officer or whether the members of some of the squadrons were responsible for sending in the application or whatever it is, because I’ve got a copy of one from when I was in Malta and it said,
you know, in writing to the goldfish club saying that I had been picked up at sea and all this business and it just automatically come and next thing I got this thing from the goldfish club, you get this certificate and things and one thing and another. And that’s how it happened. I didn’t initiate any of it. The system somehow handled it and I just got this membership, made a member because of the information that had been
passed onto them and I was eligible and they made me a member.
to the royalty or that the same people that say get down and do their curtesy when the queen came and they have this sort of saying that ‘everyone is related to royalty’. ‘I knew a man who knew a man who danced with the Prince of Wales’ or something is the old saying, but the - even if you know what they say to you when they meet you, you still get a certain amount of pleasure out of thinking that you were there and that they
even took the time to sort of say something to you that was personal. That was what got me more than anything about meeting the king. I thought he would just walk out and pin it on me and say, “Good show,” and I would say, “Thank you, Sir,” and that would be that and then each time after he gave one a medal and he stepped back and obviously his aide of com [command] or master of ceremonies or whoever it was would say to
him, “Well this gentleman who is coming up next is so and so and so and so,” and give him something to say to him and he walked up to me and put it on and he said, “When was it you came down and crashed in the desert?” And I sort of thought, “How did the king know?” And even though I knew he had been told, it still was something to think that, like, the king knew anything
about what you did or anything. I used to joke with the kids about it after the war, and when I had some of the talks, but like, even though I knew it happened, I was chuffed to think he would go out of his way to say something personal to me instead of just hanging the ribbon on me but I think. They said to Monty when he was out in the desert, Monty always used to, he would be travelling around and he would have about
50 papers rolled up ready you know the local 8th Army News or something and every time he jumped out to go and see the news and every time he’d go up to someone he’d saw, “Would you like my paper?” and he’d get back in and get another one and people would say, “Monty gave me his paper.” That was something that not everyone got. So it’s a sort of PR [Public Relations] exercise but I thought. I was chuffed because he was a very
sick man. You could see he was a very sick man at the time. He was fairly heavily made up to cover the pallor of his cheeks and one thing and another. I noticed, I was close enough to him to see that he had some make up because I think he was in the process of starting to die and so on. He didn’t last long after that. So that was my moment of glory, I suppose, that he wanted to know when I crashed in the desert
and I thought, “Well, fancy the king asking me that.” So we are all a bit vain about things like that underneath it all. Even if we know it’s cooked up sort of thing.
There was a couple of quite unusual things happened to me there. At that time, the CO had killed himself and no, he hadn’t killed himself on the actual day but he did a couple of days afterwards, but I was given the job because I was senior flight commander. The first thing that happened on D Day itself, all our aircraft were declared unserviceable.
What they did, they thought that when the war ended that some silly coots would get up in an aeroplane and do some aerobatics or something stupid, so all the aircraft were rendered unsuitably. They took the magnetos and disarmed them all so no one could do anything stupid with an aeroplane when celebrating and the next thing that happened, the station commander came and saw the CO and said, “We’ve just had a request from headquarters
to say that the commander, the German commander in Jersey Island won’t surrender. He’s going to fight on the war on his own and we want a squadron, not a, six aircraft from your squadron and two or three other squadrons, Mosquitoes, we want them to get them, arm them and we want them to fly over the Jersey Island in a feat of strength just to let him know
that if he doesn’t pack it in…God knows what we were supposed to do, but it was a show of strength just to convince him he had to pack it in. I had to go out. On our aerodrome we had two hotels, two pubs in the aerodrome circuit and I had to go out with everyone drunk, just about drunk on the day after the war ended, and get six aircraft in the air,
get crews and everything like that. They were all in the pubs and things. First of all, I knew two blokes were teetotallers so I got them out of bed first. I got one crew that hadn’t had anything to drink and I knew were all right then I had to go around and find the armourers and mechanics to make the aircraft serviceable and find people who fortunately it was early in the day and not too many of were too far gone or anything, and I had to get,
I had to do the biggest salesmanship. Can you imagine walking into the pub the day after the war is over and try to tell some blokes that they are needed to go and fly their aeroplanes again? The war’s not over, they have to go and fly over the Jersey Islands. They’d say, “For Christ sake, shut up and have a bloody drink, man.” It was all just unreal. So I had to go around and get all these. I finished up getting six aircraft and all the armourers and so on. it was a difficult, difficult job
and we finished up getting six aircraft in the air together with the others and we flew over the Jersey Islands and when we got there they had put the white flags up so we were never know whether it was because we were coming or we were there or he had changed his mind, anyway, before we left, but we can claim that we got the surrender of the Jersey Islands by flying over them. That was a bit of queer one.
problems at all. I got everybody in the air and then that was on, while we had the aircraft. I think it was only that 24 hours or so we got the chance of flying all over Germany. We had two trips. We had two days in beautiful weather and we went out the squadron practically all the squadron and we flew over Germany and the Rhuhr and everything in daylight just to see what
it all looked like from the air when the war was over. It was really awful it really left an impression on me. Some of the towns, well parts of England were the same. You looked down and all you can see are what looks like a lot of sheep yards or something. There are no rooves on any of the houses and you can see the walls and the rooms and where it was and hundreds of them in areas where there were just - for the first time without any
fear or anything the first time we witnessed what really happened to them over there and not that it didn’t happen. We have no regrets in many ways because they started it. They bombed London without worrying two hoots about it and but, and Rotterdam and Coventry and everywhere else, so they started bombing with any discrimination so
it wasn’t that feeling, but it was an appalling site nevertheless. The Cologne Cathedral was this frame standing up there in the middle of Cologne. It was just a framework. It looked like all the windows had been broken just standing there right in the middle of Cologne and everything about it flat. Very wonderful thoughts and wonderful sights to have seen after the war. We did that for two days. Two flights over Germany just having a look. We did two trips over there
for several hours just having a look at them. I took different passengers with me from fighter command, so that was the sort of thing I did in the war that had any connection to the war really.
didn’t really expect it in the way I think Japan must have been. I suppose because it was only a week a way there must have been signs that Japanese war was winding down, whether it was after the bombs about just about the time when they obviously were getting the upper hand, so I don’t think either of us thought that they were going to get sunk on the way home or anything. We, I think that they probably chose a route that was reasonably fairly safe, but she says that she remembers
the lights coming on and they announced on the boat that the war was over in Japan. It was a stressful time. It was nearly as bad as moving here. Seventeen pieces of furniture to get on the boat with a pram and a baby and trunks and we had to change trains and like you do in England, but that was all, it was a wonderful time really. I wouldn’t leave England until I got her on the boat
because I heard stories about some of the blokes that had gone home and had been promised their wives would follow them and were still waiting a year later, so I stood on my dig then when I went and saw them in Australia House and the chap that I saw made the mistake of asking whether I knew the…I had to make the first arrangement when I came back from Malta. When I’d been to Malta not just after and he said to me,
he made the mistake of saying to me, “Don’t you know there’s a war on?” and I stood up and grabbed him by the tie and said some rude things to him, so that was how I was wound up a bit, but it wasn’t the right thing to say to me after I thought my bit of trauma.
and they couldn’t get me out, I was out in a flash. I wasn’t even put on the reserve or anything. I had to report down to Doyles Road and before I knew where I was I was out. That didn’t particularly worry me. I didn’t want to stay in but I was never given the opportunity to see if I wanted to go on the reserve or anything but that was another thing. But coming out and my old employer Halls Bankshore offered me the job back again if I wanted it,
and I told him I was just thinking about things and I went and gave a talk to the Legacy Club [association caring for families of war veterans] about, when I got back. I was still in uniform I think, and a few days after a woman said, her father was a legatee and one of her father’s friends was a Legacy president and what not, and asked me to come as a guest speaker every week and talk there and after the talk
the manager of Dunlop rubber came up to me and said, “What are you going with yourself?” and I said, “Nothing yet.” And he said, “Come and see me on Monday morning. You are the sort of bloke I’m looking for. I’ll give you a job.” So I thought it wouldn’t cost me anything to go and find out, so he gave me a job on the spot at Dunlop rubber and a better proposition that I had at Bankshores. I took the job and I was there for two or three years and then I was working so hard
and I started up a workshop there and everything and I got this chance of buying a service station very cheaply that was run down on Glenaltern Road and so we put my reserve pay and a few bob we had and borrowed some money from the insurance company and we bought it and I did that for nine years until I got enough money to buy my farm, which I really wanted to do all the time.
And what did you miss about the air force?
Nothing much. It’s funny, really, because it sounds a bit strange, but most of the young airmen that came to our squadron towards the end of the war all finished up being airline pilots. I didn’t want, I didn’t care if I never saw another aeroplane when I came out. I just wanted to make a new life for myself and wife and baby, and flying aeroplanes…I’d done all the flying and had all the fights that I want.
If they offered me a job. The interesting thing about it, Don Anderson who finished up the director of Civil Aviation got in touch with me at one stage and said, “Do you want a job in the Civil Aviation Department?” and I said, “Sorry Don, aeroplanes are out. I’ve decided on what I’m going to do.” I would have been a vet if there had a been a chair of veterinary science, I would have done it, but it meant that I would have had to leave home and go to Tasmania
or Queensland or Sydney I think. There was no chair of veterinary science in Adelaide and I didn’t want to leave home again. I wanted to get busy and get a roof over my head.
And what, what do you miss about the air force?
That’s a hard one really. Well I think it’s hard to put into words. I don’t miss it an awful lot. I don’t miss it in the sense that, I’ve got boys in our squadron, Bill Griffin, he’s 83 and he’s just bought a new aeroplane to fly. He never got over it. He came to the end of the war and he just lives to fly aeroplanes.
So I’ve never been bitten by the bug like that. I think the experience I had was just enough to make me realise I was lucky to be alive and don’t push it too far. Don’t get airborne again because everything that goes up has got to come down. I don’t mind flying. I’ve been in a jumbo, but no. I haven’t got…I’ve been up in an aeroplane a few times. Sometimes I go outside and see the beautiful clouds
and think it would be quite nice to whiz around up there and play around in the clouds, but never in the sense, never to the extent that I get a real urge, a real urge that I get overwhelmed that I’ve got to out to an airfield and hire a plane or pay someone to take me up. No, no real, no urges to fly. Quite a lot of our boys have finished up being airline pilots and most of those came in the latter part of the war and never got, I always say they never got enough
frights. I don’t know if that is a fair comment in some cases.
just to be honest and to treat other people as you would like to be treated and try to be petty about things. You know, to be a friend. To get a friend you have to be a friend. To be loved you have to love
someone. A bit corny. That’s how I feel and no big stuff, but I feel that you have to sort of fight some things, for anything you think is right, and I despair of the, some of the trends that are going on now with young people. It’s awful.
What happens. Why are children burning down their schools and pinching cars day and night? Is it the parents’ fault, is the education, is it a complete loss of religious sort of basics? What is it? It’s so complex to try and put a finger on it all, but there are some very worrying trends I think that are leading
us, aren’t leading us to a better society. I mean, some of the problems that they are bringing up like aboriginal problems and whatnot. I’ve had friends and the aborigines broke their heart and they tried to help them and they broke their heart, so some problems. A lot of people are saying they are going to solve them but they seem to go on year after year and the solution isn’t easy as people make out.
And I think with the youth people. I think it is bad parents. Parents that, not just economics, but when we were on the farm and that we had hard times on the farm and we lived very frugally to get through the seasons, but we never went to sleep before the kids came home to bed. Some parents don’t seem to know what their children are doing.
Running around. Pinching cars, vandalising. I don’t know. That’s a new thing that we older people can’t quite understand. The thought of kids getting up and going to burn their school down and set fires. Where does such a thought come from? I mean, in our younger days we would never have dreamt of such a thing, so some things
are a worry. We hope that the world is a better place. It has made up safer, I think, until these new things come along. It’s a bit of a worry and I can’t offer a simple solution to it all except the way we live I think.