Australians at War Film Archive

I was born in Bendigo on the 4/2/1927. I don’t remember much about that. I suppose the first part of me life I remember is when I attended St George’s Catholic School in Carlton. Did there for a very short period of time.

They were during the depression years. Things were extremely bad. Families then moved from house to house. You slept on floors and things like this. I was one of a big family a 10 children. We moved to a place called Mornington where me father took on share farming, dairy farming. From there we moved to Langwarrin where

my father cut wood for a living and my brothers helped. But things were very bad. We grew potatoes and many a time we had to dig potatoes out of the ground for the next feed. That would take me up to about the time I’d a been 9 and then we came from the city to Fitzroy. Charles Street, Fitzroy. I went to St Patrick’s

Christian Brothers. But once again I was always the poor kid, one of 10. Other school kids had school uniforms I didn’t. Other school kids had books I didn’t. I sold papers when I was 11. Wasn’t supposed to start till you were 12 but the money was needed. I left the Christian Brothers as soon as I was 14. I didn’t stay to get me merit, which precluded me from

quite a lot of employment. Not having your merit, you didn’t qualify for the apprenticeship. I went to work as a billy boy at the police station in Russell Street when it was first getting built. I worked on the top floor of that. I was an improver bricklayer there. Only for 9 months and then me father decided I had to learn a trade of some sort. I then

got offered a job as an apprentice butcher which I took and I stayed at that for 5 years. From there I moved around a little bit. Worked in just about every state in Victoria. There was nothing important much happened in that part. I had a very good teenage life. We used to have

dancing every Sunday night, dance at the Heidelberg Masonic Hall and all these places. It was a very, very good teenage. In our younger set, there would a been as many girls as boys and we’re all very compatible. Did a little bit of amateur boxing. Wasn’t much good. Played

footy of a Sunday as a rule or cricket of a Sunday as a rule. But once again with me poor background, I never had the chance to get to practice or to be any good at it. I was a very good tradesman as a butcher. When wages were something like I think about 18-20 pound a week, a firm in Hobart paid me 30 pound a week to manage one a their biggest shops and give me a bonus of 40 pound twice a

year. So that says Joe Prendergast was good at it. That was though after I got married. Went to Brisbane. Met up with a friend before I got married, went to Brisbane met up with a fella there by the name Eric Hornsby and we travelled around a bit. He talked me into joining the army. It was his brilliant idea and he nearly got me killed.

I only joined as a 2-year man and normally 2-year men can’t hold rank. By that I mean you joined as a private you stay as a private, or I did anyway. Where do we go to from there? We did our roughly 5-months training in Puckapunyal. Went to Japan.

Japan was a wonderful experience for single young fellas like us those days. From there, we did me full 12 months in Korea. And I did me full 12 months in Korea in the front line. I come home a different person. I was badly shell-shocked cause the mortaring and the shelling was very heavy.

In some of that material I gave you, Allan Edberg states he did a patrol about every 3 nights. Well what he’s overlooking so did we soldiers. The difference is officers have really done 6 months in the line and ordinary no-person like me did his 12 months on the line. Cause it wasn’t the administration parts you could send the ordinary troops too. Casualties in Korea were a lot heavier than a lot a people realised.

I estimate there was and I’d be pretty accurate on this, whilst they gave out 18,000 medals they gave em to anyone. They were inclusive not exclusive. If anyone applied for it they got it. Fellas that were there after it was all over still got it. Fellas that dropped in to have a bit a lunch got it. But actually fighting men, I’d say there was 5,000

and of those 5,000, 1,300 odd were wounded and over 300 killed. That brings you up to nearly a third or more than that of your troops. In the month of July, I think that’s correct, no, in the month of May the battalion, which is roughly 600 fighting men, had 200 casualties. Everyday someone

was always getting hit. It had a very deep impact on me. The girls I was going with couldn’t tolerate me when I come back. It was a whole different world. I go then I touched on, I got married in 1957.

Yeah.

I got married in 1954. I have 3 daughters.

I went into, I stayed in butchering til I was 30. Went into real estate, for which the butchering was a very good background. It taught me how to handle people. I was very successful in butchering in real estate. I was also a registered bookmaker, which I did as a hobby and I loved. Earlier in me life I was a

fireman, joined the Fire Brigade. I’ve been a Lion [Lions Club] for 25 – 30-years. A Lion is a person does community work. That just about takes me up to, my wife decided she loved someone else 20-odd years ago after 30 years a marriage. And that takes me up to today.

41 Charles Street, Fitzroy

There’s no 104 Charles Street, Fitzroy is there?

You must be right down Smith Street.

In the old days there was Casey’s Real Estate agent on the corner. Yeah. None a the people I knew ’d be

there. But I only sold that house. When Mum died I…When Dad died, I bought that house. Not off Mum. Stone’s Timber Factory owned all that roughly and Mum was a tenant there and when her house come up for sale, I bought it for her and she lived there for the last 20- 30-years of her life rent free.

What year were you there?

No but what year did you get there?

You’re not even a resident yet son.

You own the house?

Right, right. I owned the 41. It’s a much bigger house inside than it looks; has 4 bedrooms plus a little flat head on the back and it’s a very nice property.

I didn’t grow up in Bendigo. I was born in Bendigo. That was midst of depression years 1927 and people moved because they were evicted. I was the middle pin of 11 children.

I know nothing of Bendigo at all. Although later in life, I did go back and buy a farm at Elphinstone, which was a nice property. But that’s another story.

I beg your pardon?

I would not have a clue. The first part of life I remember is when I was about 4 and my father built a humpy for us to live in

down at Moorabbin. He built it out of corrugated iron when things were very bad.

I only remember it vaguely. I remember he had corrugated and bagged walls. I can remember he had a horse, a light draught-horse

and that was pretty well it. The first thing I really remember is when we lived in Drummond Street, Carlton and that’s when I started school at St George’s School.

He was a plumber. He worked in the good years on the Melbourne Shrine.

Plumber. Connected water,

sewerage.

Didn’t ya. How do you think they go to the toilet there?

A very hard man, but you gotta remember looking back.

At the time I thought he was too hard. You’d get many a kick up the bum, many a clout over the ear. But looking back now I realise the frustration he must’ve had. He was a sober man, never drank or gambled. I’m a gambler. My mother was just the opposite. She was a caring person. She never raised her voice and when we boys ’d argue about the football,

she’d step in straight away and say, “Stop arguing”. And we’d say, “We’re not arguing, Mum. I’m just telling him he’s wrong”.

All strict Catholics and everyone went to Mass Sunday morning. I’m now agnostic but in those days you belonged to the. Growing up as a youth you belonged to the YCW [Young Christian Workers] .

You went to a youth meeting once a week. You went to the gym once a week. All within the church and Sunday night you had your Sunday night dance, cause the Catholic Church liked Catholic to marry Catholic and that’s how it went.

Fitzroy you mean?

Well Drummond Street, I was only there for a period of about

12 months, maybe yeah at the most 12 months. First year at school there, then we moved to Mornington.

We went from, to my knowledge, we went from Bendigo that first faintest memory I’ve got is at Moorabbin and then the first proper memory I’ve got is Drummond Street, Carlton.

No. Vice versa. I was about 4 when we were in Moorabbin; Carlton I was 5 or 6.

Mornington. Yes I’d a been about 6 or 7 when we moved to Mornington and we were there for about 12 months.

Not necessarily, wasn’t always evicted but that was par for course in the big families that had no work. You see 50% of your population was out of work.

Well normally I suppose the landlord ’d come round and wanted his money. And those days

there was nothing like today where they’d get a notice to quit. They’d just move your stuff out onto the front yard.

It didn’t because that was part a life in those days. It’d be just like India today the poverty they lived in. t was part of life you had to accept it.

I spose in Carlton I got on very well but when I started the Catholic School at Frankston, that is after we moved to Langwarrin. To start with we used to walk the 5-mile in to Langwarrin to school. I was the dirty kid. No

uniform, hardly any books, very much on the outer. There was a fair bit of bullying went on and you copped it. And I particularly remember this fella the name of Ferguson. He and his brother used to bully a lot and then this day he’d been doing his bullying and the bigger brother…the bell rang, the bigger brother had run off to get in line. He was about two grades ahead and just left the ordinary Ferguson,

same grade as me, sittin’ there still tryin’ to bully old Joe; wanted a fight. I said, “Yeah you’re on”, and I punched tripe out a him.

No. But I could, look there was 7 brothers, used to have to fight the older ones to stop em standin’ over you and the younger ones to keep em under.

No not a lot but I did a little bit.

In the country Langwarrin, I cried when we left it. It was about 9 when we left it. Ran wild I s'pose. No shoes on. Had calluses on me feet. Then when we

come to the city, I had to learn to wear shoes again. Anything at all you just played there. I don’t recall that much.

Did I?

As I grew up. As a boy I didn’t. Once I left school and become an apprentice butcher,

I played tennis. I played footy. I played a bit of cricket, a bit a tunnel ball. You know I done all those things. Used to go dancing 3 or 4 nights a week. Had a very full and a very enjoyable youth.

No. I played no sport. When I was 10 when the other kids were goin’ to play footy I was nickin’ off up the street to sell papers.

No. I would say that, it was we were always well fed.

Well there’s a different world today. You had mutton chops stewed. And as that was the only food you were used to, you enjoyed it. You had a lot a potatoes, a lot a bread. Mother used to make a thing called macaroni, which was macaroni and various things mixed in with it. Durin’ the depression years you didn’t eat cereal like you do today. We’d

get a packet of Weeties or a bit a bran things like that. One of our meals was you had a slice of bread put hot water on it, drained the water off, then put a bit a milk on cause that way you’re not usin’ too much milk and a bit a sugar over it. That was a bread and milk breakfast. That was par for course.

I never liked rabbit and consequently I don’t think me father did either. There were plenty a rabbits around Langwarrin. No, I don’t recall eating rabbit.

Well see the younger brothers, say the four or five younger than me, they came up more by the time they were reached the stage where they were moving into the older life. You know become six seven or eight, me father was

back in the city working as a plumber. They didn’t have to do it quite so hard. I was the middle pin and I think my mother had a very hard time bout that stage because a daughter 18 months older than me died, that was Theresa. They were in the good years because once

1939 come along there was work for everyone. Plenty a work and the whole picture changed. But during the ‘30s, the late ‘20s and ‘30s, it’s impossible to explain how hard it was and must a been.

The whole population was doing it hard. No I don’t particularly remember that. I just remember when I was young us being moved out and furniture being moved out into the street. And I only remember that happening to me

once but we moved that many times during those say 1930 to 1934.

Well you don’t feel it see. When you’re a baby you go along with your mum and dad. You cling onto your mum’s skirt all the time.

The education was hopeless. As I said I went to St Pat’s. I went to St George’s. I went to the State School in Langwarrin for a little while and being about the only tyke [Roman Catholic] in the school you gotta fight every second kid in the school. They transferred me and the parents decided I had to go to catholic school, so we walked to Langwarrin, from Langwarrin to Frankston, which was 5-mile.

But I used to very we had a few cows. I’d miss a lot a school cause there was no feed on the old property we were on and I’d herd cows of a daytime on the side a the road. There was no electricity in that house. There was no sewerage in that house.

It was basic

son. Yes you’re right.

As I said to you, there are times when we dug potatoes for the next meal. The oldest boy had left home, that’s Laurie and worked in the city. The older sister left home bout the same time and worked in the city.

But it still left the rest of us boys there. My father used to cut wood, had a horse and cart and they used to hawk the wood around the various hotels in Frankston to sell wood. It was extremely hard for them. The only water we had was tank water. When the

tank was running low, I’d hitch the old horse up and I was only about 8 then. Hitch the old horse up to a sledge and go up to the town water pump, which was in Langwarrin, North Road Langwarrin, and pump water by hand into a water can, milk can and bring it back.

No

I don’t strangely enough. I was oblivious to all this sort a thing. I think I was ignorant. I only ever struck that I’d say twice in all me life.

I don’t think

so. I think all the Catholic kids went to the Catholic school because half the Catholic religion was send Catholic children to Catholic schools and my parents were very strict Catholic.

Yeah.

At this stage

it’s a fairy tale son. You can’t convince me now. There’s been other civilisations on this world. You can’t convince me all of a sudden 2,000-years ago some bloke walked on water and some bloke turned water into wine, all this sort a thing. It’s a big story and a lot of superstitious old nuns and priests have cashed in on it. I do not believe any

more in religion.

Course you did, you were brainwashed. You know ‘Confido Deo Nepertente’ . I can still say me Latin. Those days we went to Church Mass. You were an altar boy you know “Yes, Father. No, Father.” And half the Father’s were touching up the little boys.

Nothing. I was the ugliest kid in the school.

That’s right.

No me father was a non-drinker.

Didn’t touch it. I was a disgrace to the family. But I didn’t drink until about 21. I took a pledge and I kept it.

And then I only drank when we went to the ball. Used to have a lot a balls in those days. Used to have the Fitzroy Football Club, the Mayoral Ball, the Australian Wheat Board Ball and away it goes and I’d see meself I was a young butcher. I’d work all day Friday start 6 o’clock Friday. Go to a ball Friday night. It would go to 4 o’clock in the morning. 5 o’clock the next Saturday morning you’d start work and you’d work all day Saturday.

Sleep didn’t come. I really had a ball my life at that stage. There were plenty a pretty girls and plenty a.

Always had a few. I was lucky there. As I said I belonged to the YCW, there was about 30 boys in it. You always get the one or two you don’t get on with. You always get the one or two you do get on with.

I was lucky.

Young Christian Workers. It’s obvious you’re not a tyke.

Right.

Can I ask you a question?

Didn’t they have YCW then?

Well see they grabbed us as soon as we left school

and the YCW was a…most Catholic children were invited into it. They had a big property there down at Myawobma [?] where used to go for occasional weekend. The priest that was in charge of it the regional priest when we used to go down there every weekend - not every weekend, say you went down there one weekend in 12 - he used to take his housekeeper along and his 12 year old daughter.

That’s fair dinkum. And we were so ignorant. They had a special part in the back of it and they moved into that for the weekend. Course we didn’t see anything wrong with that because Father what’s his name no way he’d be playing with a woman.

Course he did. No, the housekeeper. The daughter was really his

daughter.

They were more. Now I was in the YCW, right. When I become about 16, I become a leader. You had about 7 leaders in the group. They were mainly the office bearers of the group.

I remember you tried to give sex instruction. It was very anti-communist. It was a lot a propaganda against Eureka Youth League. And that was virtually it. But we had our share of fun. It was a big property there and you’d walk down to the beach

and things like that.

But we regarded the Eureka Youth League as an evil organisation. They were communists and particularly

communism was you know regarded as evil. The Church was very anti-communist. In fact my father I’ll give him his due, he was a strong union man and when the DLP [Democratic Labour Party] was formed the local priest came around and he expected every

Catholic to join it and my father showed him the front door. His name was Father Fox. He later on became Bishop Fox. He was terribly anti-communist, terrible pro-DLP and that caused a lot of

thing. I was there that day he got up at Mass and he said,"You can’t be a Catholic and vote Labour "and I s'pose that was the start where they started to lose me after that.

That was the Democratic Labor Party. You see it was a split in the Labour Party.

Don’t you know there was a split in the Labour Party? [in the 1950s]

It kept the Labor Party out of power for years. See there was a strong Catholic movement in the Labor Party. Bob Santamaria was the person that formed the DLP. He was Catholic Action Group and part of it was to put pressure on the Labor

then Government to give finance to Catholic schools. But also Bob Santamaria put up opposition towards the then [Victorian State] Cain Government to put certain part of the land in Victoria to one side just for Italian immigrants. That means you know so many thousand acres,

give them preference on that land, like the soldier settlement was up round the Mallee. The church knocked that back. Sorry, the Labor Government fellas knocked that back and they also knocked back at that stage aid to Catholic schools and that’s what started your split. The Catholic movement couldn’t cash in on their

numbers within the Labor movement to control it and that’s what started your split.

The Labor Party in Victoria and other states in Australia split and they called themselves the DLP. They said, “Well we’re the Democratic Labour Party” and the Labor voters instead of always voting Labor, you had your roughly 10% which was so

brainwashed Catholic voted DLP and that kept Labor out of government for many, many years.

Yeah. That’s correct yes.

That was the Catholic Action Group. Yes the early ‘40s it started because they had their meeting hall in

St Pat’s Cathedral Hall where the YCW used to meet. That was when? ’42.

Haven’t you?

They’re still going today to a very small extent. They were I s'pose

left wing idealists that was forming young people into their same sort a clubs as the YCW was. They weren’t as powerful or as prominent. Particularly after the war, communism really become a bogyman and

that’s when they really wanted to fight the Eureka Youth League.

I don’t remember. See I was only 12 when the war broke out, so to me I wasn’t in that sort of thing at all

How could a 12-year old boy? You wouldn’t even know, couldn’t spell the word.

That is when I was a teenager. You see I started work when I was 14 then I was gettin’ 2 bob [shillings] a week pocket money. I was in the YCW.

We were you know spreading out. That’s when you learned to dance and you played Sunday afternoon footy and all that sort a thing.

A few poems. “A host of golden daffodils to be a soldier’s requiem among a thousand hills. Blow golden trumpets mournfully

for all the golden youth that bled and all the shattered dreams that lie buried beneath alien sky.” That was about all we learned.

I beg your pardon?

I’ve forgotten now. I found learning poetry easy. But I didn’t have time to.

I remember going to one or two when I was very small. They were tragedies to go to. The one I went was about 7 but even then you had women fainting in the street. You see the population of Australia ’d be about 5-million then. We lost half a million young men. Just drive up

round Ballarat see the trees, just stop and think what a hole that left. In later years, I don’t want to divert, I worked for the government in the Public Trustees office where wills and that come through and there was a very wealthy woman without names mentioned. Lived in Fitzroy and later went to work in St Kilda and she was an attractive woman. My father later in life did

work for her as a plumber on some properties she owned. She was an attractive woman and everyone sort a speculated why she never married and when she died the public trustee handled her estate. And I went through this very big home sorting out assets because she’d made us the…she had no direct relatives and here hanging in the wardrobe was a

captain’s uniform. She’d kept it all these years. The shoes were there polished; a big photograph of him on a horse. She could never accept anyone else when her captain got killed. How many girls would a been in the same position? Half a million blokes; eligible marriageable blokes.

Yeah. Now only once or twice. My father was not a returned man so he had no allegiance to the or any

reason to go to the Anzac Day parade. We went in to watch it about once or twice but I can remember my mother and father both talking about the people that fainted at the Anzac Parade. You see it was still very close after the war and as I said to you, many a girl never married or lost a boyfriend or lost

her husband. Half a million of the male population gone out of a 5-million population. If you bring it down to the eligible blokes, three-quarters of them I s'pose were gone. Nowadays it’s more of a light hearted thing but it was in those days a

tragedy day.

No.

No we didn’t realise what. Most of us that weren’t affected didn’t realise it was going on. It was the population themselves had lost so many relatives and things, they were the ones that went to it.

No.

No. See I was too young to realise that was about. You don’t start thinkin’ until you get into your teens. 1939 the war started I was only 12

so you don’t form opinions.

About the same time I realised the difference between boys and girls.

It never affected me.

After the Second World War. No we mixed.

See as I said, I joined the YCW. That was all Catholic youths although we accepted Christian youth. But that was Catholic youth and so all the girls I knew were Catholics. All the boys I knew were Catholics. The Catholic Church I’d say has…I was a very

strict Catholic at that stage. Sex was something you didn’t get because you didn’t do it. You were so brainwashed and it held my sex life back til I was 20. It was absolutely ridiculous.

Right.

Yeah that’s right. We were so brainwashed you know.

It was extremely bad.

You know like, say we were in the YCW when we were 15 and 16, now those same girls we were dancing with we were going to Mass with on Sunday morning. After the dance on Sunday night you’d walk em up to St Mary’s where a lot of em were living, country girls there and no matter how strong you were tempted the Sister would come

out and say, “C’mon girls. Time you were coming in” and many a shattered dream, son. But then I was lucky see. I spose in our young days, it’s only guessing, at least a third or even perhaps half of all weddings were shotgun weddings. I didn’t have that problem. Me three brothers did but I didn’t.

So I managed to go til I was 27 before I got married.

Second World War?

I was 12 when it broke out

and I sold papers. They brought an extra out that day and I had a bonanza selling papers. Me three older brothers all joined up. One went as far as Darwin, the other two served in the Islands, but there was no fatalities in the family. I knew of two people

that got killed, both in the air force. But it never touched me that much because they become boom years. There was all of a sudden plenty of work about, plenty of entertainment about.

During the war. Soon as 1939 come out instead of people they would kidnap you to give you a

job just about. They were lookin’ for women to work in the aircraft factories, munitions factories. You just couldn’t get enough employment and that is, the whole thing’s exploded.

That’s right.

A wonderful place.

Well, I lived in Charles Street. A hundred yards round the corner was the local church.

Up St Theodore Hall was where we went to our YCW meetings. I worked as a young butcher, I spose 50 hours a week. There was no regulated hours those days. You generally worked from 8 til 5 but it was half past five by the time you finished. You generally worked from Thursday started at 7. Friday you

started at 6. Saturday mornin’ you started at 6 and you didn’t get paid overtime. It was still a carry over from the very hard days. Butchering was a very hard life but it taught me how to work hard and later in life I was grateful for that.

How much?

Pound a week.

No because about 3 months before I worked as a butcher,

I went and worked as a message boy and got 25 bob a week. And it was only me father’s insistence that I learn a trade that was better for me that you know that I came back. But it was lousy money really. But that was it.

No 25 shillings.

One pound five. See there was 20 shillings in a

pound.

Yeah but you lived in it and at least you had something to. Prior to that you would’ve had nothing. See when I was a schoolboy, you never got pocket money. Like you’d a had pocket money when you grew up boys. We never had anything that.

Hardships? I remember me mother crying once when I was 7. I asked her for sixpence to buy a reader and she didn’t have it. That was a reader for school.

Yes I do.

You remember odd things in your life. It was very, very difficult. I say that. The few shillings I earned as a paperboy was important to the family. But then once the war started wages came better.

Work was very plentiful. There was no such thing as unemployment and that was an enjoyable part of me life.

Yeah I tried to join up and they kicked me out when I was 16. But

I was too young. I turned 18 when the war ended when it was over so that was it.

No, no, no. I didn’t feel I’d missed anything no. It was just a part of, I lived through that part a life. Had wonderful time that part of life.

I was talked into it when I was about 22 by a friend I met in Brisbane.

Oh right.

Well cause kids were runnin’ off to join the army and that you know. But no I was too young that was it.

I don’t remember any.

None. I didn’t think of it you see. I was too young that’s the end of it. I accepted life’s come pretty well. Me three brothers were in the

army.

Well there was a fair gap. Laurie would a been about 14 years older than me. The next one the youngest one to me would a been 4 years older than me again.

When I was 14 he was 18. He was a different group. The sister between us died and that left a gap in that part a the family. The family’s really in two parts; from Dennis to Laurie which is the oldest; and then from me to the youngest. I was virtually the middle pin. No I didn’t associate really with the older ones.

My father was a very honest and honourable man. Hard. I remember he went into business himself during the war years and he had a chance to make I think it was about 3,000-pound out of a corrugated iron deal and he knocked it back. That was a lot a money

then. He played the game straight down the line. In fact it sort of the war really brought a bit of a boom to us. It meant we could go and buy a suit of clothes.

Yes we had a wonderful time. That’s when the YCW we all went to town.

We danced and kissed all the girls and then my particular girlfriend at that stage I remember her yellin’ out, “Oh Prendy, Prendy”. Because she’s getting kissed you know and she’s trying to get away and made me feel 6 inches taller by lookin’ after her. It was part of a magnificent time for me.

Sorry?

Everyone went mad. Bourke Street. Everyone went to town. Bourke Street, Swanson Street was packed. People dancing. People doin’ the Hokey Pokey [dance] and all this sort a

thing. There wasn’t that much alcohol. It was just a big throng of people dancing and cheering, climbing on buildings and things like this. I being younger not realising the dangers of war and not having anyone that was at it, you know,

like a wife or a husband or a…it didn’t have the sort of impact, “So and so’s coming home”. It didn’t matter to me whether me brothers were coming home or not. I wouldn’t a liked anything to happen to em but that was it was unimportant at that moment.

I don’t recall. I remember me mother crying when war was declared and I couldn’t understand why she was crying.

I don’t recall.

Oh sure. Everyone tried to take the Yanks down. For a little while it worked with the red-topped taxis. I was a grease monkey there, greasing cars and they used to get whisky bottles fill em with cold tea and flog em off to the Yanks for whisky. But they’d only do that if they immediately was goin’ on ship. Look some terrible

things happened that they used to take the Yanks down. But that was once again they were open game.

I can tell ya about one in Japan and in Korea which I was in a bar in Tokyo. Now this was Korea. Yanks were always big-timers and this Yank come in and he laid a hundred dollar bill down to pay for a drink. And of course the

Japanese wages after the war were at the most 2 pound a month, which is about 5 bob a week, 50 cents a week. They were terribly poverty-stricken and he come and he laid a hundred dollar bill down. And of course the Japanese behind the bar said, “I can’t have no, no. Not have ahachi”. Can’t change it you know. And the Yank’s then sat at the bar and about 6 or 8 of us Australians further down the bar

and this Yank’s saying, “Can anyone change a hundred dollar bill? Can anyone change a hundred dollar bill?” And no one’s takin’ any notice. Then all of a sudden this little Jap down the bottom sittin’ there said, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I fix I fix”. Comes runnin’ out, grabs the 50-dollar bill, out the door. I think he’s still running today. The poor old Yank was treated as a sucker by everybody. I remember

Labonski during the war years.

Leonski. He was the one [US soldier in Melbourne] that strangled all the. I remember that because it was in all the papers.

No they’re not the Brown-out Murders. Leonski - I don’t know were they the Brown-out Murders?

I think he got about five of them didn’t he? Or one got away.

That’s correct. That’s correct. I remember the. Knew it quite well.

There was. About the?

Only it was in the paper. There was a lot a talk about it. There was a lot a

talk of it in the dance halls. Cause at that stage of me life I was about 17 or 18 used to go dancing a lot. In those days there was a lot of older girls too. If a girl was 2 years older than ya, ya thought, “Oh she’s ancient”. But there was a lot a those girls around because the fellas were at the war. The Americans filled in to some degree and took their place.

There was a lot a talk, you know be careful and all this sort a thing but that’s about all I remember of it. But I remember in the papers quite well.

No I worked as a grease monkey for a few months once again when I first left school but my father insisted upon me going to where I could become an apprentice. That’s how I become a butcher.

Never. See I was only a young teenager.

I know that taxi drivers used to talk about rippin’ em off but that’s only very vague to

me now. But that’s about all.

Sorry?

How do you mean? For me? Well I was still apprenticed. I was very much into gambling and racehorses. Those days you had a SP [Starting Price] bookmaker up the back lane.

Every back lane had an SP bookmaker up there. That was me main relaxation. I was pretty well tied until I finished me apprenticeship til I was 21. Then soon as I got out a me apprenticeship, I went and joined the Fire Brigade. There’s a photograph of me over there. I became a fireman for 9 months.

And then I went back to me butchering trade cause that’s what I was good at. Went and worked in Tasmania, went and worked in Sydney, went and worked in Brisbane. I’d always come back home again of course. It was whilst in Brisbane, I was talked into the army.

Very prosperous.

Anyone could get a job. We didn’t have the shortages, which other countries had. There was petrol rationing but that got lifted pretty quickly. [Prime Minister] Bob Menzies won the election on that. You were allowed 4 gallons a month petrol, which was practically nothing, but he lifted the petrol

rationing and won the election.

Well from the time I was 18 onwards, where most kids had to still walk, I was a gambler, I’d won enough money I’d bought a little car. Always had a car. No I took life. Had no ambitions at all. Took life. I was lucky enough

at one stage in life to work under, after I’d finished my apprenticeship, a very, very good butcher, one of the best and he took a liking to me. Took me under his wing and really taught me how to use a knife and he made me one a the best cutting butchers in Melbourne. Consequently I moved around a lot. I’d go from butcher shop to butcher shop because I’d

want to go to Sydney for a race meeting or I’d want to go. I was very like very much on the move. If I went to a shop and the wages say were 8 quid a week after the first couple a days I’d say to the boss, “Look I’m not satisfied with this, I want an extra quid”. He’d say, “Well that’s all I pay”. I’d say, “Alright I’ll quit”. He’d always give you the extra quid because I was good at me trade. I was well paid as a butcher. Well paid.

Yes, yes. I was getting a quid a week to start and the old bloke Brown I worked for was a one-man shop. He kept me on starvation wages as long as he could and

soon as I could I got out of that apprenticeship which was 6 months before it finished. The Apprenticeship Commission transferred me to a bigger shop because going to the school they knew I knew nothing. And they transferred me to Angas’s in town and I never looked back. They paid me better. The hours were more reasonable. And I was a young man reasonably good lookin’. Loved

dancing. Loved gambling. Loved goin’ to the fights. I had a ball.

I did join the Labour Party when I was 16

and they started puttin’ me through the Labour school. My father was a strong union man. My uncle was the Mayor of St Kilda. They did earmark me for politics. My father’s cousin was Premier of NSW, Prendergast in 1923. I was earmarked for politics. I was a disappointment to them.

I was at the Fitzroy Town Hall when there was an argument, which I won’t disclose over a tender, and in the Caucus, the Council discussed it for the Counsellors to know what to pass. I disagreed with it and walked out. I’ve no doubt I would’ve made me mark as a politician had I stayed. My brother Pat,

he went on to become Mayor of Fitzroy but he just didn’t have it. I could’ve gone that way. I would’ve had the backing of the union movement, both the butchering and the plumbers. But it wasn’t me. It interfered with me racing. It interfered with me social life. It interfered with me moving around later in life.

A lot a people thought I was in many ways.

Eureka Youth League was never a factor. Communism never worried me. I never believed the propaganda

that was put out. I just looked at them as another people their way of life.

You always blamed communists for strikes. And perhaps some union secretaries did use the name communism to further their own political power

and suckers believed it. But they weren’t really communists. [John] Halfpenny. He used to claim to be a communist but once he got out a the union movement he couldn’t shake communism off quick enough. You’ve heard of Halfpenny?

He was a leading union secretary at the Trades Hall. He claimed to be a communist but once he

retired from the position he diced communism. It was only a wagon a lot a people jumped on.

You didn’t have to believe them.

Look, I’ve no doubt Stalin was a madman. I’ve no doubt other leaders on the right side, you know, Franco, were madmen; anyone who could kill as many people as they did. But it was just part a life. Part of the wonderful world I grew up in. It didn’t worry me.

I didn’t know how to fire a gun when I went in the army.

The which?

No the only thing I remember that was the movie For Whom the Bell Tolls.

I think it was made before 1939. Did you ever see the movie?

You ought to

get it out and see it. It’s extremely good movie.

What’s the difference between fascism and communism?

I see it as none. They’re both dictatorships.

Democracy’s the only way to live, only life to have. But where do you get. I don’t want to get sidetracked. But where do you get democracy today other than Australia?

Yes.

Well that was too young for me to be touched with.

The Trade Union Movement, yes.

Very much so.

He had no argument with communism. Because he, like a lot of other men, thought it was only a union trying to improve the conditions

for ordinary working man. My father used to spend and he was a plumber, every Saturday afternoon - he used to work Saturday mornin’ in those days - Saturday afternoon he’d be down there workin’ on St George’s Church roof or St Mary’s in North Melbourne givin’ his time freely. Did all the plumbing work over were there as free labour; very strict Catholic.

That’s correct.

Well Robert Menzies was the one that brought in aid to the Catholic schools. Now he did it first of all in the form of

money for libraries and money for science and things like this. Sure there was a division but that division’s dead now. See you had the Freemason life and the Catholic life. I went on later on to become a Freemason. And there’s not a thing in the Freemason life that a Catholic could object to. Nor ’s there a thing in the Catholic life

a Freemason could object to.

Nothing. It didn’t affect my way a thinking at all. In fact China was a lot better off under communism.

In China from what I read and I could a been reading rubbish, you had something like 60 million dyin’ of starvation every year. Communism came in, lined up the big landowners, give em a fair trial and then shot em. Divided the land up and you had people which ordinary Chinese peasants instead of their kids going to bed crying with empty bellies at night getting’ fed

twice a day. They’re sleepin’ on straw bunks instead of sleeping on the ground. Now the Chinese were only too happy to die for communism. They charged us in their thousands. Communism was a great thing for China. And I think it’s a pity it never happened to India.

Well I’d been a little bit. From me period in the Labour movement, I always taught to vote Labour. I was a bit anti and I probably still am anti Liberal. I remember one person saying once

if the Labour government gives you nothing you’ll get less off the Libs. So.

Right. I was working at that stage in Brisbane and I met up with a

young Englishman and I was coming back to Victoria because I’d been away for about 12-months and he wanted to come to Victoria with me. So he come down. He bunked at me house with me mother and father. There was always room for. No one ever got knocked back in those days for a bed in neighbour’s houses. It was a different world. Doors were never locked. There was always a pot

on the stove. There was always a cup a tea. No one ever got knocked back from there. But gettin’ back to how I got in the Korean War. He talked me into joining up with him. So I had nothing else better in mind I went and joined up. I signed on for 2 years to go to the Korean War and that’s what I did do.

Yep.

But you’ve got to also say, me three brothers went to war and it was my chance to follow likewise.

No I had no feeling towards it at all that way. I didn’t dislike or like, you know. It was just accepted lived life as it was.

Shocking. I was for Korea they decided they wanted a battalion within 6-weeks. They took anyone. You wouldn’t get the type a people they took wouldn’t get in the army today. They took wife deserters, wife beaters, fellas out a jail. They took some terrible people.

The training they gave us, I was always pretty fit, was terrible really inadequate. I was a bit smart. I knew how to work points better than a lot a people and when we were doing our toughening-up course at a place called Scrub Hill; that’s when you were learning to live in a

hole in the ground. The RSM [Regimental Sergeant Major] at Puckapunyal, I got on very well with him cause I had to let him borrow my car durin’ the week to go backwards and forwards where he wanted to and he always made sure I had leave. So when it come to toughening-up course out there and livin’ in a hole in the ground, he said, “Well look Joe, put in for mortars”. That way you still live in a, you know a shed, in a

hut in Puckapunyal and you’re not out there. So that suited me from the ground. When I got to Korea, it was a terrible shock to learn to live underground. I was shockingly under trained. It took me I spose 6 months before I become a good soldier.

All up we did about

20 weeks but most of it was parade ground work. Sure we learned about hand grenades. I was such a terrible shot with the rifle when I got to Japan and they give us our final assessment, the sergeant said, “Look you can’t really go to Korea. You can’t shoot.” I was a terrible shot. But then there was a fella there that was a Queen’s Cup entrant [rifle shot] and he took me aside

and over a couple a nights ironed me out. And I went from ‘zonk to zinc’ to one a the best shots, so I went to Korea. But we were shockingly under trained. No one realised I was took notice see I was a terrible shot.

Are we on tape now?

Were we on tape a minute ago? Doesn’t worry me.

Only of them. There was the Barkley Street Gang. There was the Bouverie Street Gang. See once again I was too young for em to worry me but there were a few gangs going around that did worry older people.

The Bouverie Street mob was

probably reputed to be say equivalent to a junior Hell’s Angels group. They were tough boys. They didn’t have any motorbikes but they ruled the other mobs.

Carlton.

All newsagents have an allotted area and as a kid you had a stand. Now if some other kid tried to take the stand off ya, sure you’d fight him. You’d fight for your stand and that was common practice.

Knew of him and I’m not givin’ his secrets away now. The Public Trustee at the time I worked for them administered part of his estate, the old TAB [Totaliser Agency Board] or not TAB call it the old Tote, the shop he run for the

Tote in Collingwood. Now, John Wren I know very strongly as fabled fairy tale was discussed quite openly in me family and among friends. He had a good reputation among Catholics perhaps

not a bad one. My father said........ do you want this part?.

My father said he started off as a bootmaker and one of his early things, he’d lend people sixpence no security, people that were working in the shops round him, or ninepence and on payday you had to pay him back

a shilling or ninepence. He charged em 25% for the few days they had it. I never heard which obviously he did have about his standover men. But operating a business as he operated in Collingwood and being a gambler meself and

knowing many bookmakers and SP bookmakers, he would’ve had to have people that were capable of lookin’ after themselves on his payroll. Heard it rumoured that he had a tunnel from his residence into Raheen.

Raheen, you know Raheen?

Boy you’re not a tyke. That was Archbishop Mannix’s residence in Kew, you know up on top of the hill. Archbishop Mannix and John Wren were extremely close.

I don’t know but I’ve heard it said there was the tunnel

and it’s probably still there today.

I remember the first bet I had. I had a wonderful mother. She looked after me and it’s the only bad turn she did me was one Saturday afternoon she put sixpence down and said, “Go up the lane and have sixpence each way on a horse called Three Wheeler” back in about

1952 and it won and I never stopped of it. How long ’s this been going? And I’ve lost thousands. But on the credit side a the ledger, in my Real Estate days I administered a trust account over worth up to a quarter of a million dollars and never once was I tempted to touch a zac [sixpence] .

Say it again.

Real Estate’s not a gamble. Real estate can only go one way. Unfortunately you get a few con men [confidence tricksters] that come in and sell people pups [bad deals] , like’s happened a couple a times on the Gold Coast. Like

happened in Queensland when they had this mob starting off selling industrial sites. They’d sell you an industrial site, your $12,000 invested in this factory. You’re one of many. They’d take you and show you this factory and they’d drive past regularly and show it to you. But they never owned the factory they’d sold it elsewhere. These people are criminals but real estate as

per real estate will only go one way. It’ll have its little bit of hiccoughs but can only go one way and that’s up.

You mean down to the Yarra Bank?

Where do you get the name Speakers Corner from?

We used to call it the Yarra Bank and you had fellas Chummy Fleming, Arnold Payne, the commos [communists] , a monk. You had all sorts a people and it used to be a lovely entertaining. Sometimes you’d get a few free fights down there, Saturday, Sunday afternoon. You always had a couple a coppers [police] there, yeah.

Arnold Payne was a character in his own right; a good talker. Chummy Fleming was a good talker and entertainer in his own right. You had some very, very good. Catholic Youth Movement was down there. They had

a commo down there. See commo during the early years they tried to outlaw it but didn’t succeed and it wasn’t a bogeyman during the war that it became afterwards because Russia was our ally. Go ahead what else do you want to know about it?

Arnold Payne talked about life. I can remember one of his phrases. They used to talk about life hereafter and he used to pull a box a matches out of his pocket and he’d say, “I’ll show you where lights go out”. He’d go and light the match then he’d go and blow it out. And say, “That’s what life’s about. It’s gone. It’s nothing”. But he could tell it humorously. They were a good laugh.

You’d had a few hundred down there in the old days. They don’t still have it now do they?

They should never have taken it away. Yeah

I used to thoroughly enjoy it.

Revolution. Talk about working conditions. They more or less pushed. I didn’t stop to listen to them that much because I wasn’t particularly interested. But there were always the barrow what I can gather was

the underprivileged and that’s what they always aimed for.

My opinion of it? Even now if the world lived 100%

communism, it’d probably be a better world. But it’s not practical. If you lined up a hundred blokes the top a Bourke Street, give em a hundred bucks each time they got round back of Bourke Street, some bugger would have you know the next bloke’s money. It’s just not quite practical. I think for countries like China and India it’s a must, cause it’s the only way. How would you feed so many

millions of uneducated? What’s gotta happen to…? What communism would’ve done in my opinion to India would a lined up all the Maharajas and that, give em a fair trial and shot em. They would’ve opened up an abattoir. There’s sixty million cattle wanderin’ round there. They’d a started knockin’ them over. The old people wouldn’t have eaten em but the kids with empty bellies would’ve.

It would’ve lifted them to the state where China is today. And China will come back to a more democracy. I’ve no doubt that. It’s only a stepping-stone. But to countries like India and China I think it’s a must.

Never.

No, bogeyman under the bed. Look Australia will only ever be under threat from one country ever and that’s from Indonesia if a mad general takes full control. Our ally then will either be China

or Japan because with all our minerals and our wealth and uranium, China could never afford to let Japan to take over Australia. Japan could never afford to let China take over Australia. Our wealth guarantees our freedom really. It’s I don’t know why it’s not looked that way.

But it’s the same with many other countries. Switzerland see they never worried. They said, “Well look, we’re not gonna fight”. We could virtually do the same thing.

No never. We feared the Japanese cause they were coming, but communism never.

With all the brainwashing I was getting never for one minute did the Red Peril ever I think it was a proposition to worry about. I didn’t think for one minute that they’d invade us and become our saviours. That sort a thing wasn’t on either. I just could not possibly imagine Russia attacking Australia.

No.

What would they want with Australia?

They got tons of space.

But passive invasion; I heard a lecture on this about 40-years ago and I regard it as right and it’s been proved. It’s the

passive invasion we’ve got to worry about and it’s not so much the boat people of today, it’s if the waters of the world do rise say 3 feet places like Pakistan and all that’ll be more froth and bubble than you can point a stick at. They’re the boat loads and they will come here not in the ones and twos but anything afloat and

there’s no way fellas like me or you are gonna mow em down as they come up the beaches. You’re gonna be draggin’ em out of the water. Even though I don’t approve of accepting the extra immigrants because I think Australia has a limit and we’re fast approaching it to what we can handle. But it’s gonna happen. It’s gonna

happen, my son.

You’ve got a bit of a phobia about World War II. In World War II as I said, it was a wonderful time for me. I was a teenager. Loved dancin’, there was plenty of pretty girls. Unfortunately I was held back by being brainwashed by the Catholic

Church. It was just a wonderful time.

It didn’t affect us. As I said I worked an apprentice butcher in them days and used to take the people’s coupons and give em what they wanted.

Leonski. I remember it cause it was in the paper. I remember it they talked about it in the

dance halls you know and that’s pretty well it. See it didn’t last that long. They caught up with him, I think it took about 9 months or something like that they had him.

Black market? Don’t remember it. See we didn’t need a black market.

In Australia we had enough of everything we wanted. There might a been a bit going on about petrol rationing but I’m not conscious of it. You heard a little bit about it but what did we need the black market for here in Australia? We had plenty a food. Plenty a clothes. There’s nothing we wanted.

Shortage with?

Yeah but you’ve got a remember too there were thousands and thousands of Yanks come in to take their place and they did take their place. Human nature being what it was, it levelled out.

They were that older bracket, never worried

me because most a my age bracket didn’t go to the war and the girls in my age bracket were a little bit younger, were too young for the Yanks. Although some of em climbed the ladder.

Didn’t meet?

Can’t recall it. I did hear one person say once. Now this is only a theory. I

passed a comment in the Public Trustees Office once about the amount of more females were getting in protected persons with what do you call it? Forgettin,’ memory problems.

No dementia. And a person was quite high up in it. Now he was the only one to ever

give a theory to me he said this, a lot of it was caused by the…See the people we were getting were all people just a bit older than me and there was a flood of them and I reckon women were outnumbering men about 4 to 1 in dementia. And he said a lot of it was caused by syphilis the Americans brought in durin’ the war,

and syphilis doesn’t always show until later in life and there was no reason to ever get themself, you know, the checks that you’ve got today. Doctors would probably pick it up today while checking you for something else. But in those days you didn’t and so the Americans did leave some sort of a legacy. Whether they’d ever admit it or not I don’t know. But he was in a position to know that fellow and

yeah. But I had no actual contact with the Americans.

Of course you saw them. As a paper kid you sold the odd one or two papers. They were always in town. They were always goin’ to the movies. See they were just that bit older. I was that group just under em and our Sunday night dances and that they didn’t come to because we were a teenage group.

It a little bit but it didn’t really register to a 12 and 14 year old, 15 year old as it did to older people.

I never thought they’d get to Australia. I never thought they’re risk there even though Robert Menzies drew the line at Brisbane. That was quite everyone knew that. I can give you an interesting story on that. I worked as a billy boy

when I first left school for Dawson and Smith on the police station like I told you and they took me and two bricklayers to the Taxation Department and down in the basement, I don’t know what they stored in there, but they stored a lot a stuff in one room we weren’t allowed in and they bricked it up and plastered

over. And that happened in 1942 and I often wonder today if that room is still blocked up. What they put in it. Would it have been paintings that they didn’t want the Japanese to get. Were they really frightened of the Japanese getting here? Often wonder today.

I don’t know that’s

only my guess. But why seal it up? There was something on the racks in there.

That is down in the basement. You can get a I’ve no doubt if you get an old plan of the Taxation Department on the corner of Lonsdale Street and Queen Street down the basement if you get an old plan to show you the, you know of rooms

then you’ll have to walk though and say,"Hey there should be a room here". That’ll be it.

I beg your pardon?

I don’t know what it was. I don’t know but I often wonder. Most likely when the war was over they knocked the wall down and removed what they put in. But then again what if the higher up had retired

and no one bothered about looking? No one remembered it. Staff changed very quickly.

The very first job

I had see, I jumped a part there. I was a paperboy and one a the fellows working, Ted Riley at the police station said, “I can get you a job if you want to as a billy boy and improver bricklayer”. A billy boy those days you lit a fire and you boiled everyone’s billy. The little the workman’s billies and most of em give you the tea and you’d put the tea

in. They knock off for smoko or lunch; their tea was made. That’s what a billy boy did. But he also on his other time, he started to learn how to lay bricks. But me father wanted me to do an apprenticeship and I was only at that for about 3 or 4 months. You’re getting’ tired?.

I’m not sure it did. I was goin’ me own merry way. Celebrated with everyone else, the boys and girls as 18-year olds did. Had a lovely little, got myself a

lovely little girlfriend out a that. She died a cancer when she was 21, girl the name of Shirley. I spose that’s one a the reasons I never married til late. Might a carried the torch too long. It didn’t change life. I had everything I was wanting.

Na. We were always short a labour right up to the ‘50s.

That is where I went. I’m not sure I went to the police station. No I didn’t. I went to the Red Top Taxis. And then once again me father

said, “You can’t become a mechanic”. They wanted to apprentice me but they couldn’t get permission and he said, “Alright well that’s that” and I got offered a job in the butcher shop and that, I didn’t need a merit certificate for that and that’s how I become an apprenticed. Still got me indentures inside to give you a look at.

Well today

too. I think you’ve got to have certain credentials to get into any trade. And at school in my day was the Eight Grade you could learn to. I could probably spell better than most a the kids today. And all you had to be able to do is add up and spell and that was it. But it’s a far different complicated world today.

Very little. Most of em came back into their jobs and their bosses were glad to have em cause labour was scarce.

I really. Well me three brothers to start. And I do realise now

the war changed everyone. War does change you. It changed me shockingly.

In Korea, we were very heavily mortared. Now you can tell where a mortar’s gonna land by the sound. If it goes (sound effect) that’s a fair way

away. But the one’s right on you goes (sound effect) it’s right gonna get ya or right close. You only had to turn someone to scrape a bit a metal and I ducked. I’ve never slept properly since Korea. I was staying at a hotel in Sydney once and me wife was with me and I was she stopped me from getting out the window of about a 15-storey

building. You never get over. Towards the finish I remember when a little fellow what’s his name got hit and I was sad he got hit but glad it wasn’t me. And so the casualties were so heavy.

If you read up the month of April, May there was over 200 casualties in the one battalion. Now that’s not deaths but that is wounded and that. It was a lot.

The brothers never pushed the British Empire that much. No, look I was a poor family and in the Eight Grade, I didn’t have and the Seventh Grade and Sixth Grade I didn’t

have history books and things like this. I had a reader and that was about it. Never thought about it.

God Save the Queen. Still can. I go down say just to defer (unclear) I am a Royalist and the only reason I’m a Royalist is I consider it’s the best system in the world

and to change I’d like to see a better system. But I don’t know of a better system because I would never agree or encourage us to take the American system. Where it is tied only to the wealthiest could probably get to it and it’s getting worse. At least our system here we have two distinct parties. Anyone can fight their way up through them.

Anyone can be. Yeah the Royalist system’s proved the best. I don’t think there’s a better system in the world from my small bit a knowledge I don’t think there’s a better system in the world than we got.

Sure.

Correct.

Very much so. We are very important to America for bases for strategic reasons. England couldn’t possibly come to our aid during the war because she was as flat as a lizard havin’ a drink a water tryin’ to defend herself. Things couldn’t a been played much

different to what they were. I don’t condemn Britain for not comin’ to our aid because she just couldn’t possibly do it.

Did it affect the world? Most of us were quite happy to stay in the British Empire because we were educated that way, lived that way and accepted that way.

We only heard what we read in the papers. Naturally most people realised that it could become a war. I don’t know, I

had no specific ideas on it at all. And in retrospect now it was only two bantam roosters ruffling their feathers, none a them wanted war.

I’m sorry?

No if he wanted war he would not have turned the fleet back

from Cuba. He would a said to the Americans, “Sink us if you dare”. There’s no way in the world Khrushchev wanted Moscow wiped off the map or America wanted New York wiped off the map. The hydrogen bombs made that type of war completely

untenable. The big providers of arms will sell their weapons to the smaller countries and be happy with that. Where do countries like Nigeria and all that get their arms from?

We didn’t have any knowledge of it really. We never thought about it. It just wasn’t in our realm you know. We were just livin’ a happy life and satisfied.

Dancing. Punting. Goin’ to the races. Loved goin’ down to the stadium for the fights. Saw every good fighter just about that come to Australia. There was plenty to keep you busy and I was workin’ about 50 hours a week. What more could you do?

Only in the YCW’s amateur a little

bit when I was there. But I had enough brains to get out a that smartly.

The which?

Plenty of it. I used to bet fairly well on the fights. You’d bet the red or the blue and Ambrose Palmer’s boys were generally good boys to bet

on cause he placed his boys well. We did pretty. I saw the greatest fighter to ever come to Australia Freddy Dawson. You heard the name? He was the greatest fighter ever to come to Australia; ever to fight in Australia. Best lightweight I ever saw other than that and I saw em all was a fella called Pat Ford from Orange.

I saw Dave Sands at his peak. Jimmy Caruthers at his peak. I loved the fights.

Yes. I saw him in Brisbane. I was in Real Estate those days in Brisbane. I saw him fight in Brisbane a couple a times. But the quality of the fight game tapered off. Those days they used to have to work their

way. Stadium Limited make em work their way up through em. They’d start at 3-rounders, 4-rounders, 6-rounders then the better boys got to eight. And the better boys start fightin’ 10s. They might spend a couple a years fighin’ 10-rounders and then they’d graduate and they were good boys. They come to they call themselves champions too quick these days.

West Melbourne Stadium. Sydney Stadium; Rushcutters Bay it was called in Sydney.

I’d have a win at the races and toss the job. See those days, you could get a job butchering anywhere. There were 8 butcher shops in Smith Street and I could walk into any one of them, “Oh yes Joe you’re right” and get a job. Now say I had a good win, I’d fly to Sydney yeah,

by all. And used a place called the People’s Palace and I think it used to be about 10 bob or 15 bob a night. But you had a clean bed somewhere to shower. I’d fly up there just for a race meeting. Saw the best racehorse Australia ever had.

Right.

I was at the I think they only called it

the Royal Australian Regiment. I was at Puckapunyal. They taught us to handle the Owen Gun [sub-machine gun] , Bren Gun [light machine gun] , rifle, bayonet drill, parade ground marching and

then at me own request did a course on mortars. That was very helpful to me cause it learnt me to understand mortars and to know more about them, to know the danger and the risks of em; when they were really dangerous and when they weren’t. I consider we were under trained very much so

and that’s pretty well it. We did about 20 weeks training and that was about it.

Mentally we weren’t prepared for what war was. I didn’t

crack because I was a bit older than a lot of them. I was about 23. 19-year olds did crack. Two of em in my platoon cracked. I remember going to one. I was told to go down tell him he was on a patrol that night. I lifted up the…See you’re in a hole in the ground dug into the side a the ground and you generally had a

blanket or something hanging over the doorway so as the light didn’t shine out. And I lifted it up and he was crying his eyeballs out. He didn’t want to go. I dropped the blanket and I went in place of him. See I wasn’t frightened that way. I wasn’t frightened because most young men are not frightened. Most young men just accept it as if a close mortar comes in you know and it gives you a bit a fright that one

does. Just like driving a car and you nearly have an accident, but you’re quite confident for the rest of the drive you’re not gonna have an accident. That’s virtually what it was. And another fella just shipped him out. They sent him home and they sent another bloke home early for the same reason. They just couldn’t cope. And strangely enough those affected worse by nerves are the younger ones.

Say again?

Well I told you the training we did in Australia. That was it. It was just nothing to when you were there. We went to Japan to a place called Kure. From there we

went on to a place called Haromura. Haromura’s a place where the ‘mad major’ was. You may hear from him from other people. He did exist and he was a person. He was where most English officers dressed properly, he used to wear a daggy pair of old shorts and carry a big stick. He put a jeep under

arrest. He put a dog under arrest. He used to walk around in an old hat in the rain. He was as mad as a loon. That is the mad major. If you hear about him he was correct.

At Haromura, an Englishman. And then when he was goin’ he says, “You fellas think I’m

tough. Just wait til next week, me brother gets here.” That was fair dinkum, if you hear about the mad major of Haromura. In Haromura we did a toughening-up course. That was mainly practicing assaults. Charging up, not charging, but up very steep hills with a pack on ammunition up the hill. We did that. That was the toughening-up course to get us

fit because Korea was all hills. You had to be fit. That’s about all I can tell you.

Yes.

We never got any a that.

I beg your pardon?

We no, they didn’t give us any of that. They just took us in. They trained us how to fire a gun, how to climb up hills. Getting us fit. See they had 20 weeks. They did when we were doing our training explain what a hand grenade is; amatol and baratol and the fuse and things like this. We did learn how many rounds an Owen Gun fires, mainly about 400 a minute; a Bren gun about 450 a minute. But the Chinese

burp gun [sub-machine gun] fired 900 a minute. You know you learned these types of things. But the training was not nearly as my nephews do in the cadets today.

We were shipped off to Korea.

Alright. We were replacements not as a group. So that is one a the problems of the Korean force. We didn’t go over as a group. So the fellas you made mates with in Melbourne you could, just you didn’t stay with because they sent 64 over on my draft. That is we went from Kure to

Iwakuni. Iwakuni they put us on a boat and took us across to Pusan. From Pusan we went by train up to Inchon, I think it was. A Korean name anyway. From there we were deployed to various companies. Two of us of the original group

went to Don Company. And there we stayed for the full 12 months.

Well those 12 months mainly most a my time was spent either digging, see you’re in trenches right. The first time we went onto a feature called 355, the trenches were very

sparse. We spent our nighttime, only nighttime digging. If you were diggin’ in daytime you were behind the mountain. But every third night, you’d be on a patrol. Now there was two types of patrols. Three types. There’s the ambush patrol; that’s when you’d leave at first as soon as dark was coming out, go 200 or 300 yards out into the

valley. In some places the Chinese were only 300 yards that way. On the average I spose they were half a mile to three quarters of a mile away. The valley between two ranges of mountains on either side. If you were on an ambush patrol you’d go out perhaps I never measured it. Could be anything up to 300 or 400 yards, settle down

for the night, that is to ambush any Chinese that are sneakin’ over to your area. Now on the very front of your line you have a minefield. You had a gap in that minefield and that’s where you went down and if you went down and up. Just like a little highway. It was about 10 yards wide. Wouldn’t be that. It’d be about 4-5 yards wide. And then there’s minefields right down

either side. We put a wire fence around it. That’s to stop any of us from straying into it. Although I do believe one officer picked up a minefield wire. Walked into it and blew a bloke up. A standing patrol you used to go down, leave your embankments and your trenches, go down to

the end a the minefield perhaps 5 to 10 20 yards past, you had three little holes dug and knew it was a standing patrol. What your job was, you had a land line [field telephone] and if any a the Chinese made an attack, you were cannon fodder because three a you couldn’t do much against a Chinese attack. But that would give warning

to the rest a the battalion that it was on. Now you did that I spose two a the three nights you were out on patrol. The other night you’d be either out on a ambush patrol or a just ordinary listening patrol.

Yes.

Yes sort of thing there. Now that was pretty new

work, but it was pretty hazardous from this aspect. You were out there from dark to daylight and the idea was to get back up through that minefield before full light comes because Charlie ’d [Chinese] always have a go at you if he could see you in that you know in that straight six. He knew where that track was

and he used to fire random shots at it. I was out there one very, very bad night when it was estimated they put over 2,000 mortars down on that feature and we were stuck in little hole like that. His only chance a gettin’ us was one coming in the hole with you. A mortar can fall anywhere within 600 yards

by 200 yards. So he fires a mortar. See a mortar goes (sound effect) straight up, (sound effect) straight down. For him to get you if you stayed in that hole ’d be difficult. But occasionally they did come in the hole and occasionally they did come in the trench. There was an English tank on one of our features and it come up onto the top a the ridge. Shouldn’t

have but they used to put camouflage nets over the top of them so that the Chinese couldn’t see them. But this bloke didn’t have the net and he’s cleaning the tank out. The lid was up one mortar went straight in the turret. He’s honest. That is how you’re on standing patrol as I said to you or on patrol mostly it can take up daylight to 12 hours

but you come back, get a bit of sleep and they’d be wantin’ you to do some digging. They kept you occupied. That was the main reason.

That is a static phrase. That is where most of your`casualties occurred. Because you see they were dug in. We were

dug in and it was bomb blast bomb blast all the time.

Not as such as charging a mountain or anything like that. 101, that was direct. Chinese came across our feature. That was the night Herb White got the MM [Military Medal] That was a little feature. I spose it was

only 50 yards around. The Chinese platoon come across it. It was all over in 2 or 3 minutes. That was the first time I saw me first dead Chinaman. The next morning had been raining couple of us went out to pick up any a the dead Chinese that was in front of our line and I turned one

over and he had a hole in his chin. He had a hole in his chin as big as a little slit and then when I turned him over the back of his skull was gone. We lost most of our fellows by…I was one time there, mortars when we were there, that was the time we lost Mick Healy, Hamilton, Weebarra. There was four of em. This was on 355.

Talking. I was friends with them and I come around the thing and this was in an open space. It was slightly behind the mountain because then you could stand in the open cause the Chinese couldn’t see you. This was daytime and I was walkin’ around and I was from here, I was within 20-yards of em and one mortar come in bang and killed the four. Sat me down. Didn’t give me a scratch. And I rolled Mick Healy over

and he was black and he was just full of little holes. Jock Hamilton had a hole in his throat and you could see the backbone from there. And some bloke said to me later on, “Jock Hamilton wasn’t dead. He could still you know makin’ sounds.” But that was only ignorance on his part. It was just the death rattles that he could hear. See when a body dies gasses move, things move

but yes.

101. 355. 227.

The hill where Lieutenant Ryan got killed. That was that paper I showed you I was quite familiar with it. That is a feature I was looking at it regularly from 355 and that was a raid that should never

have taken place. I also knew, you’re talking of casualties. And nothing’s ever published about some a these things. There was a sergeant and a lieutenant took out an ambush patrol. Now I know this happened because I knew the young fella on the Bren gun. They took out a ambush patrol. Their plan was to be decoys, to go out

for the Chinese to see them. See normally on a ambush if two people popped up they wouldn’t ambush em. They’d let them through so they’d get the whole platoon following them. They’d take them as forward scouts. Well their brilliant idea was to go out let the Chinese see them. Come back. The Chinese ’d follow them and they’d ambush em. The sergeant and the

lieutenant both should not have gone out in the first place, because that’s your top command of the platoon. They went out but somehow or other they got a bit disoriented and come back the wrong way. The young fella on the Bren gun killed both a them. Shot them. I heard it that it was 6 in the chest of one and 4 in the head of the other.

But I’ve never seen anything of it. No one’s ever spoke about it. Joe Quinlan, he was me lieutenant for 6 months. As a rule when the lieutenant done so long in the line they moved him back. They moved Joe back to another rear company but

he come up to do a patrol. Got shot. Lieutenant Grey, he was out checkin’ a mine wire. He and Eric Hornsby and they were 600 yards away from us in the valley in daylight where they shouldn’t a been. The young fella on the Bren gun again fired one shot again and hit him in the chest. But he survived it.

The English they took over 101 when we left 101. That was the most forward position of the lot. It was a little knoll out in front a the mountain and you went out at night time. We lived on American dixie rations. You couldn’t bring food out there. The English took over from us and they were national servicemen, all

these 17-year olds and then the night when we were changing over, they sent out a patrol down that side a the little hill, one that side. They went to war against each other out the front. Mixed each other up for Chinese. That’s about all I can tell you.

I beg your pardon?

They were all small scuffles from then.

Yeah. During the static war it was only. You didn’t have any big charge forwards at all. Not in the 12 months I was there anyway.

No they showered it.

Well they sent a platoon over to us on 101. They were to see obviously what was there but mostly that group we killed. See there’s this. I don’t think, this is my personal opinion, we could’ve pushed the Chinese back one yard and they couldn’t push us back. At the finish they tried to take The Hook, the Chinese

did and I’ve heard estimates of 2,000 and 3,000 bodies in front of The Hook.

I beg your pardon?

Next door or just around from it. That was a position the Chinese wanted to hold. They couldn’t take it off us. It was defended by the

First Battalion.

Oh yes, you could hear those things they’re going on. They’re going on every night somewhere. The main danger, the main killer was mortars.

That’s the truest word you ever said. I was coming in off patrol one night

when a fellow one of our blokes in a standing patrol or a listening patrol as we’re coming up towards the minefield he didn’t challenge us he just opened up with Owen Gun. As happened it went over me head or over the platoon’s head. That happened a couple a times. I knew of another instance where a fellow,

I don’t want to mention his name, but he opened up with a rifle on a bloke coming off patrol. Another time a fellow lobbed a hand grenade on an incoming patrol. There was a fair bit of friendly fire and they don’t give it the publicity that it should’ve had. You’ll never find

anywhere in the records of the lieutenant that picked up wire and led his platoon through a minefield.

You put a barbed wire. Allen in his summation there says a 3-strand barbed wire. It wasn’t. Most of em was a 1-strand barbed wire. But they put a barbed wire around the minefield. That’s to tell you there’s a minefield there. But the Chinese would sneak up and cut the

wire and you could wander into the minefield if you’re not careful. So but this lieutenant saw the wire and yeah there’s no minefield there. Someone’s shifted it. And he walked in but there was a minefield there alright.

Yeah barbed wire and a little red

triangular thing on it to tell ya that’s a minefield.

They were willing to spend the necessary men to run through a minefield.

To stop em yes, that was the design of it. And the mines were there alright. One of our blokes accidentally - see we used to carry barbed wire out to put up and - he dropped a roll of barbed

wire and it tumbled down through the minefield and mines were goin’ pop, pop. They’re there alright. I never took chances. Also did a mines course when I was in reserve. See you spend 6 weeks in the line 6 weeks out except the first time. The first time I spent 3 months in the line then you come out for 6 weeks. Then you go back for 6 weeks. That’s to from there.

Lost me train of thought where was I?

I did a mines course one time when we were in reserve and I was very grateful for that because it meant if ever I got trapped in a minefield I would a got meself out of it.

First day in Korea? Terrible shock to the system. It was

raining. I didn’t meet…the truck just met me there. The truck just dropped me there from what I can remember of it. We walked up the hill

to someone directed us to a command post. I don’t remember much other that except someone saying, “Oh you are bunking in with him and him and I took me - I was carrying a rifle, a kitbag - and I was billeted in that was the one 227, a hole in the

side the hill that was lookin. And there was one two, there was two bunks in it. I suffer from claustrophobia a little bit and if you wake up at nighttime, you touch the roof and it’s just plain dirt. You dunno where the door is. It’s like bein’ buried alive. I suffered badly from that. But you were so tired you slept from tiredness.

Then we moved out onto...I was only there for a couple a weeks then we moved out onto 101. 101 that’s when Joe Quinlan come along, the lieutenant. We had to start from scratch, diggin’ from scratch on that. There was no trenches, no nothin’ there. That’s about all there is to tell. It was hard yakka. Digging.

Patrolling. Stand to.

What I which?

The first day at the front line I don’t remember much about it. That would a been. I was only there a couple a nights when they had operation. One patrol a big patrol went out and they got badly knocked about.

They were coming in I’m just tryin’ to think. I was on picket as they come back through our position. That would be the night Racer Hill got killed. Racer Hill. That would be the night Humphries got wounded in the hand. Look I don’t remember. It’s blank. You just lived

through it.

Yes.

It was in the line, yes very similar. The Chinese didn’t attack our particular position but they attacked others. It was much

heavier probably bombardment than World War I because they’d perfected mortars. See if you’re in a hole in the ground and they’re only shelling you, you’re pretty safe cause the shell either goes straight over or hits the front. But a mortar goes up and (sound effect) straight down. You can’t dodge a mortar. Can’t get away from a mortar and that’s what made it so heavily.

Perhaps 101. We were machine-gunned on 101. But they machine-gunned us from the Chinese lines and you could feel the bullets firin’ in the ground round you.

Be which?

I would a been digging that morning trenches behind the line at the back of 101. It’s a small feature. It would only be I s'pose 50 yards across if that at the

top, it would a only been about 10 yards across. Our job was to dig a trench right around it. When we first went there, we just dug gun pits about 3 feet deep about 3 feet by 2 feet. That’s to give us somewhere to get in and that’s all we

had the night that started. Round the back we had I lived in a tent but I’d dug halfway into the hill and had a tent over the top to keep the rain out. That particular night Herb White and a patrol I think it had about 8

fellows. No not (unclear). A corporal and a patrol of about 8 their job was to go down to the front of the knoll without going into the valley and listen then come back. We were at stand-to in a trench and they would’ve only been 50 yards in front of us. We were at stand-to there.

When they struck a Chinese patrol coming at them. They opened fire. I’d fired not a shot that night because I’ve got me own fellas down there too. If I opened up I could shoot them. Herb White had to take over.

He was only ordinary patrol what’s you call em there. They killed several Chinese. There was no panic. It was cool calm and matter of fact. Joe Quinlan was the lieutenant. He wasn’t involved because it was a corporal that took the little patrol out. Herb White got an MM [Military medal] out. Not a MM, he got

a MID [Mentioned in Dispatches] out of it. The next morning - we stood-to all that night - the next morning we went out and collected the dead and that was it, that was the first actual clash from my part with Chinese. But there was plenty of

shelling and mortaring by Chinese and very close hits. To relate two of em to you. I should a got killed twice. It’d been raining like mad and the trench was half full of water. One of the forward trenches looking directly at the Chinese and I got sick of

sittin’ in that water, standin’ in that water I sat on the side a the trench danglin’ me feet over the side and then without warning ‘click’. It was that close, I didn’t get the whistle and (sound effect). I thought what was that? And I went round the next morning and had a look. There’s this Chinese mortar stickin’ out a the mud within 3 or 4 feet a me,

should a blown me to smithereens. But the ground was that soft. See a mortar when it goes up the first hit of air of mortar when it hits the air arms it. There’s an alley in it, rolls back and arms it and then when it hits the ground, the nose it explodes. But the mud was that soft, it didn’t go off. Later on that day, I got a pick and shovel and I went back to that thing and Major

Trennery always liked things done properly. Excellent officer, one a the best I ever struck in me life and I set to work without anyone telling me. I dug a hole in the side a the hill that wide got a couple a shell cases there so as the next time it bloody well rained the water could get away and I’m halfway through diggin’ it and Major Trennery comes around.

Now he’s a company commander not a platoon commander, he said, “What are you doin’ there Joe?” I said, “I’m getting rid of this bloody mortar, Sir. You know, from there.” Instead of chastising me, he said I was takin’ a risk cause the Chinese could see me. He said, “Well keep your ears open.” I did it and when I did it, the water went (sound effect) out a the whole trench. Now everyone after I’d done it thought it was a great idea. I put a couple a shell cases in it covered em over. But that gave me

a lot a goodwill with Major Trennery because there was a very strict rule on certain things: A, you should have your tin hat on certain times. That’s this bloody major-general who brought out a strict law and you had to wear your tin helmet. Most of us didn’t and you’re supposed to wear gaiters so as your trousers can’t get your trousers on something. Major Trennery comes and said, “Where’s your gaiters, Joe?” I said, “I didn’t put em on”. He said nothin’, let me go, anyone else ’d get a fine of 10 quid.

But I was someone I took me initiative. But by that stage, I’d been in Korea for several months and I’d started to learn what it was all about. I was a good soldier when I learnt what it’s about. But I was a very resentful soldier at first. I had me back up. I objected to authority. But I accepted it towards the finish very well.

Me nature. Not properly trained. Objected to some a the corporals that they weren’t trained. They didn’t know how to give orders. But 6-year men got two hooks [two stripes, corporal] straight away. Where 2-year men, they would’ve given me hooks if I’d a transferred over to 6-years but I was a 2-year man.

A little. Yeah some a the fellas thought you were inferior but they didn’t get away with it, you know. They could run into trouble real smart. I was a bit bad tempered for a little while there, but always settled down. I was a good soldier in the finish. I went on one listening patrol.

Towards the finish they’d say to me even though I didn’t have hooks, Mackenzie was the lieutenant then. He’d say, “Joe, you take so-and-so and so-and-so out to the listening post tonight.” That’s when they were handing out the there. So I was doin’ a corporals job without bein’ a corporal. Also, Jack Cain used me as a corporal. He was a sergeant. But they never give hooks to 2-year men.

But this particular night we went out, I suppose it was a hundred yards, the listening patrol on the side a the mountain and it was normally a pretty quiet position but all of a sudden a couple of recoilless rifle shells come in bang, bang, very close to the position we were and a third fellow there that was with us he was a real idiot. He had a pipe and

he lit up this pipe on a black night, telling the Chinese exactly where we were. I abused right and centre. Never went any further but I went to the lieutenant the next morning. Told him what happened and asked him to shift the listening post another 30 yards along or 50 yards along as the Chinese had ranged in on it. He didn’t take any notice a me.

The patrol that went out that night, Leo Howell got killed. Now if they’d a moved the listening post Bob’s your uncle. But who knows there. And that was the last fella to be killed before I come home. That would a been about

early June in ’53.

Correct.

Didn’t have any affect on

us. I felt sorry for the poor little fellow that shot the other people. It was a terrible thing. It’s something you’d be a terrible thing to have to live with. It’s

not much more than that that you can say about it really.

You forgot it quickly because there was too many other casualties, like the casualties that really affected me.

Alright I’ll go to the first person I saw dying. Just after I got out there, perhaps there a few days. They brought in some wounded and this fella’s out the front of the Command Post on a stretcher. And he was saying, “I don’t want to die. I don’t want to die.” And that did have a big affect on me because I

was trapped one time out the front of 355 in a very heavy mortaring barrage. Of course I was frightened but I was in control of meself. I was in this pit with a little noggie, which we called Koreans. Fella Johnny Duson ] was in the other pit with a noggie. [South Korean] We were on listening patrol. The Chinese knew

we were there and they wanted to get us. That same night there’d been a heavy clash in the valley and as the stretchers came in with wounded on it, they passed through us up the minefield track and a mortar landed right among em and knocked them out. Several of them would a got killed, I dunno how many. My job or my position was down there in the

front and the Chinese knew we were there. Someone once estimated that they put 1,800 mortars on the side a that hill that night and the little Korean with me he broke. He wanted to make a run for it and I held him in the trench cause he wouldn’t a got 10 yards that’s how they were there. And that’s the only time

I prayed that if I died, I’d die like a man. I didn’t want to break. I didn’t want to cry. I didn’t want to run. Now that’s how the things can impress you and that happened because a the fellow that was laying on the stretcher. He was dying but no one could do anything for him. The ambulance was comin’ to cart him off.

Begging for life is a terrible thing. That would be the worst and the closest I come. The Chinese could a got me that night. The other nighttime they could a got me, I was on 355 and the Americans took a turn on 355 and when they dug trenches they had trench diggers, machinery.

We were pick and shovel and the trenches were 8 feet deep. So for a mortar to get you in one a those trenches that is the walking trenches which run from one pit to another, had to come in. And I was standin’ there usin’ what we called a ‘pissaphone’ - that is, to urinate you used a shell case buried in the side a the hill with lime in it, now that’s pure hygiene. Otherwise you have people pissin’

everywhere the trouble you had and I’m standing there usin’ the thing there and all of a sudden right on top a me the mortar. It’s not goin’ (sound effect). That means it could be 50 yards 100 yards away. But this was (sound effect). It was right on top a me and I didn’t even have time to throw meself flat and I flattened against the side a the trench like that and all of the cordite - it would’ve struck within inches of the top - the cordite from

the mortar came down, the rubble and the bricks and I flattened out and I kept pissin’ even though I was washing it all over meself. The only time I’ve ever done that. I didn’t stop urinating while the episode. Should a got me that time. Should a got me the time I was sat on the side the trench. Should a got me the time when me four mates were talking. Mick Healy, Hamilton

were talking and I was walking down to them and I was only 20 yards from them when the mortar lobbed in the middle of them. There’s many times should a got me. It should a got me the time the mortar landed in the pit when Weebarra got killed because that particular pit was manned by us at random at different stages. It was just stiff luck that it was Weebarra’s turn to be there.

Someone come and said “Weebarra got it.” It’s was just pure luck that I didn’t get killed.

No. I think I done out a that, I think I pulled through that. Perhaps when I

didn’t realise the true danger of the war. I wasn’t trained sufficient to know the full dangers of war when I went to war.

Yes. Now they are. They’re better trained. They know what they’re walking into. That story of Lieutenant Ryan there, he knew he was goin’ to die I reckon that night. He knew

that his chances of getting back off that particular knoll would be almost zilch [zero].

I beg your pardon?

No.

The Chinese were waitin’ for them. A burp gun fires 900 rounds a minute. They’re dig into a hole in the ground. All you got them as showin’ is that much. You’ve got a full man 5 to 6 feet.

It is the equal to the Australia Owen gun; a weapon about that long, fires

900 rounds a minute. You pull the trigger (sound effect) there’d be a hole about every 2 inches. You pull the trigger on an Owen gun like that there’d be a hole every 6 inches. The Owen gun was recognised as the most reliable gun.

Russian gun yes.

Yes.

Their hand grenades were different to us too.

Their hand grenades when they threw em there was sort of a wooden stick on em and they had a the ones stupidly picked up once. There was a ring and the ring stayed on their finger and they threw it. But I only got that because the Chinese got killed on 101. They were on their dead bodies.

I don’t think any were as effective as ours. Ours breaks into, from memory about I think, ours breaks into about 32 bits shrapnel. That time the mortar, I got a little scratch that day there on the side a me head, went off and killed Mick Healy and them and I got knocked over.

A piece of shrapnel missed me that big and that would a cut my leg off. It’s jagged ragged there. But all these things are common knowledge, all these things, anyone at all that... These are of no use to you, these pieces of information.

Yes, yes.

We didn’t have the problem of booby traps.

We were never even taught how to use booby traps.

Not to my knowledge. The Chinese was an honourable

fighter.

Yes.

Well there was one case, I wasn’t involved in it, but I know they overrun one of our positions. We took it back and one of our fellas was wounded. Had the wound dressing on and was put in a trench. Now they could a shot him.

Obviously they either had enough prisoners or whatever they wanted. But the fact is he was regarded as a honourable soldier. But war was war. You don’t go to war to shake hands. You go to war to shoot anyone you can. In lifetime you’ll never know whether you injured anyone or not.

That was my impression.

No I never got in with. Well the dead ones on 101 and the few on 101. But never faced em face to face. But I would a been no different to anyone

else. I would a shot dead any Chinese that popped up.

Owen gun and a rifle. Now there wasn’t enough Owen guns to go around; there wasn’t strangely enough. And when you went on patrol out into the valley you carried an Owen gun.

Owen gun or a Bren gun.

But when you’re on a standing patrol, if you didn’t have an Owen gun you had a rifle. Most time I only had a rifle. But you see on a standing patrol you’re expendable because there’s only three of you. Now if a mob of Chinese charge you, your Owen gun wouldn’t a done much. You’d a got two or three of em that’d be it.

Yes but I never experienced it. But I believe when they put a big attack on, the first wave carried Burp guns. The second waved picked up the Burp guns and the third wave again. See not every Chinese was armed with a burp gun. There was so many of em.

I don’t know.

No I was never involved in that. My involvement was mainly as I said heavy shelling and artillery fire.

I wasn’t fair to Joe Quinlan. I always remembered what me brothers had told me one thing: never refuse an order. They can make you do anything you tell em but they can’t say how fast you’ll do it. I was a little resentful when Joe Quinlan first come over because I was suffering a bit a shock with the army.

I remember Joe Quinlan was on me back regularly to put a bit a effort into diggin’ the hoochie [field shelter] round the back and I took me time. I frustrated him a lot. Anything he told me to do I did, but at a pace that suited me. But that’s only regarding the digging at the back of the hill. It was a different story for patrols. I

never slept; some idiots used to take a chance and if they were tired and sleep on an outpost. I never slept on an outpost. I never slept when I was on picket. I give my hundred percent attention. No Chinese was gonna find me asleep in a trench.

Some took the risk.

I don’t know, but it was a risk I was never willing to take and never did take, and neither partner with me that went out most a the time, Johnny Dusy. We had that agreement. We shared the same hootchie and we never slept, never on picket.

He was a

lieutenant. I’d say I was a bit unfair I didn’t. But then a lot of us when we went into 101 were so raw. I think of the 30 in the platoon, 28 put in for transfer because it was something. We were eating C-rations [Combat rations, American] . Now C-rations are just tinned food, no bread nothing like that. Just you break open this little American round tin and you’d have baked beans and things like that and did you stink eatin’ baked

beans for a month. You’d be diggin’ a hole, some bloke ’d fart further up the trench and it would come down like ‘oh boy oh boy’, so but everyone laughed and everyone took that in good part. What else is there to say about it? Overall I spose I had more good times than bad.

Got on extremely well with Major Trennery, in my opinion I did anyway, but then I never had much contact with him. The only contact I had of him was when we were in reserve, but I had a lot a respect for him. There’s a big 88-set radio. We used to have your pick when you’re in reserve to keep you fit. You could spend the day digging the reserve defence

positions or a route march. I always picked the route march cause I was fit - 20-mile route march - I was fit and wanted to keep meself that way. Some blokes ’d pick the diggin’ cause they could lean on their shovel and not do much. Major Trennery used to always take the big 88-set and carry it the whole day. And I said, “If he can carry that 88-set, I can carry

a Bren gun or a rifle and a pack” and I did. And I never dropped out on one route march and that was a pretty good feather in your cap because a lot a blokes dropped out, too much and dropped out. Feet sore something like. Never dropped out on one route march. He was an inspiration to me there. He was a very fair officer too. I’m not saying any

names but I know a lieutenant did something wrong and it was the only time I seen Trennery upset. And he turned round and said “Mr so-and-so, you’re a bloody idiot.” Now a [UNCLEAR] wouldn’t say that in front a the hearing of a private but he said it. I never looked him up after the war. I have a flag inside there and everyone in my platoon

signed it before I come home, so I was held in reasonable respect by all me platoon. The lieutenant even signed it. He was a Lieutenant Mackenzie. He thought when he was in another platoon, he thought the listening patrol was goin’ to sleep. So he decided to sneak out one night and check em. And he’s sneakin’ out there for a moment then Sparks seen this figure sneakin’ and shot him in the

arse. Now he was a bit of an idiot. He also came in when he first got to ours, when he was a new lieutenant to us he decided to inspect the weapons in the hootchies in the front line, grabbed a rifle, pulled it back, slammed the bolt back, goes, “Right” and he pulls the trigger. Shot a hole in the roof. Many, many instances happened.

He could’ve easily shot someone in the hootchie, many instances happened. You forget them.

No names, no pack drill [no name, no punishment or incrimination (army slang)] .

No names, no pack drill. So there, sure, sure. As

I said, sometimes things happened and they’re covered up. Sometimes things are unfair, but overall war’s war, people die.

Of who?

Well I told you two instances where a bloke shot a hole in the roof. I told you one where he decided to sneak out and see if a patrol was asleep you know. I

know of one that lifted the mine wire and a bloke got blown up. But you can never prove this thing in retrospect and if he wasn’t court-marshalled for it there. Private opinion is whoever that officer was should a been court-marshalled but it didn’t happen.

I feel a miracle happened, a miracle. One lieutenant was captured and they say he was shot in the arm and the leg. I can’t see how anyone could be shot in the arm and the leg with a burp gun. So he was very, very lucky. That’s the way it went.

Yes.

227. That’d be the one I first went onto, the first place. That was where. I don’t remember much a 227. 355 was the main feature I was on and 101.

227 was that’s when the night raids a hell got killed. See I was only there temporary waitin’ to be shifted out to 101. 101 was a feature in front a that for us to take over. 227 nothing startling happened there. Nothing memorable.

I was involved in a feature for a very short period called Castle Hill. I think that had something about 900 steps up it, straight up and this we were coming out. I was only there for a few weeks and as we’re coming out, it was a very quiet position and there was an English lieutenant comin’ up with his platoon and all the gear was at the bottom of the hill

and he said, the English lieutenant turned round to one a the little Pommy (unclear). He said, “Carry that up.” Now the little Pom was carrying his own stuff. The lieutenant gave him his gear to carry up too. An Australian officer would’ve never done that. Australian officer would’ve carried his own gear up.

Yes. The English relieved us twice. We relieved the Canadians once. But I never had anything to do with the Canadians. See different people had different visions. I’ll give you one perfect instance. A lot a blokes talk about the rats in Korea. My mate you might have talked to him next, Frank Connolly he was terrified a rats and I don’t

remember the rats. Different things you know come to different minds. I was resentful of authority, I admit that to start, because the NCOs [Non-commissioned Officers] were just as badly trained as we were. But I settled down towards the finish and I was a good soldier for the last

6 months.

Didn’t have any action with the Canadians we just took over their position. They moved out the same night as we moved in and the Chinese had a big loudspeaker on the valley on the other side and they welcomed the Third Battalion [3rd Battalion The Royal Australian Regiment (3RAR)] into the front line. That’s how good their you know what’s-you-call-em was.

Yeah.

“Welcome to the front line, Australian Third Battalion”.

You had a drum of oil and it would be drip, drip, drip into a

little dixie something like that and you’d set it alight and that would give you your heating. But the next morning when you come out your face was black, absolutely black from the soot and that from the heating and you breathed that all night. This is why so many of our fellas got emphysema. That’s why so many of em have got cancer. They breathed that there.

You also had to heat your own meals. You’d get the little tin, open it up, there was a little thing like a candle about half an inch square [hexamine tablet] and you’d light that and that would be used to heat the meal and that was toxic. You breathed that. At that time people army didn’t realise the risks we were takin’ with these type a

things. Going back to the first time I was in Japan, when I was in a place called Kure without running the risk and diversifying for one minute, most of us went over and visited Hiroshima where the bomb dropped. When we did route marches, we marched up through the hills round Hiroshima and Kure We drank the water running out a the mountain

which was probably radio-active. Most Korean veterans that die, die of cancer. I think 3 times more people now die of cancer, the Korean Veterans, than any other disease. So but that’s you know the toxic thing, we didn’t realise was going on. Next question?

I beg your pardon?

The which?

We got on very well with them. We only saw the civilian population when we were back in reserve and going on route marches because they cleared everything out of the war zone. You couldn’t afford to have Koreans on their farms and all that within 5 or 10 mile a the front line, because you wouldn’t know whether they were saboteurs or who. So back as far as Seoul

but you’d see them on the side a the road. Occasionally the civilians ’d come up. Our rubbish tip was about 10 miles back behind the front line. The kids ’d be combing our rubbish tip lookin’ for food to eat and when we were on a route march, many a fella pulled his lunch out and threw it to a Korean kid you know food.

The Koreans themselves did it very, very hard. There were 3 million casualties in the Korean War. Three million in a country not as big as Victoria. That’s a million a year casualties. Bring it back to something better than that. That’d be what 10,000 a month,

20,000 a month people dyin’?

Chinese. The Yanks lost 30 [thousand] I think. I’ve been heard two figures one 32,000 and one 52,000, but if you go to the Pusan Cemetery it runs for miles. How many they actually lost

probably closer to 50,000 than 30,000. The official figure they put out is 32,000 but who would know when they’re adding them up whether it was 32,000 or 52,000. You go and look at the War Memorial in Canberra and I’m astounded the names I know from there. Three hundred people are a lot of people. In Victoria

alone we lost 88 men killed. Look at the kafuffle you have in Bali when you lost 88. Here you lost 88 young men and no one says ‘boo’ [anything] . And you got 88, three hundred-odd Victorians badly wounded. No one says ‘boo’.

The world was

just getting over serious war and the governments didn’t like admitting the casualties and they kept it quiet.

Much so.

I don’t know. I had a better

understanding of it. I knew the risk. I was fatalistic. Either I was gonna get killed or I wasn’t. The casualty rate was about 1 in 3 at that particular period. It was I dunno

and it breeds camaraderie in you and when I left Korea you’ve asked me the most memorable, the most depressive time. I’ll give you the most depressive time, the time that really, really oppressed me. The standard procedure was the night before you’re to come home, your 12 months are up, you didn’t do patrol. But we were

short. Mackenzie sent me on patrol. He shouldn’t have but he did. The reason they don’t: a fella can be nervous his last night and all this sort a thing. The next mornin’ 9 o’clock I was down there waiting for the GMC [General Motors Corporation] truck to come and pick me up to take me back to Seoul. Eric Hornsby met up with me; he was in a different part a the company, he come the same day. He and I both survived. We climbed in the truck. Now normally when you get in the trucks with

troops, there’s laughing and jokin’ and someone teasing someone. Every seat was taken up so I walked between the two rows up to the front and I stood lookin’ out the front a the cabin of the truck. And half way to Seoul I turned round and looked back and those fellas in the truck never said

one word the whole 40 mile from the front line to Seoul. Everyone was lost in what had happened. Each one of them had their own. They’d all like me survived and when I got back to Seoul, I counted the number of us that were lined up to fly back to Japan and it was

exactly 32 and it was actually 64 that went over there. I was lucky. I only survived on luck; it wasn’t my turn to go.

No I don’t think so. I think you’re in the right place. You see

you’re very rarely hit by the shell that’s fired at you. It’s the one that’s ‘To whom it may concern” that get’s you. The time I was sittin’ on the side a the trench see if that hadn’t a landed in the mud, it would a blown me to the shit house. The one that come down, if the wind had been just slightly a bit – mortar’s affected by wind - if the wind had just been slightly that would a come in that trench with me. The

night they put the 1,800 mortars on the little feature down the front; it was peppered everywhere with them but they couldn’t get it in the hole. It was just pure luck I survived it.

You’re young. You get over it very quickly.

When they discharged me, they give you the option of discharge. They look at your record and if you’ve got a good record they say, “Look, would you like to go on? Like to re-sign up? Go to Puckapunyal? We’ll promote you to corporal or sergeant. You can become an instructor.” I said, “No thank you, my time’s up, I’ll go”. I was in Royal Park for about 2 weeks waiting to get discharged. And then when they discharge you, they pay ya a day more than you’re...

That’s so if you muck up they can still charge you and as I was coming out the gate, two GMC trucks drove past me goin’ in and all of a sudden I felt terribly lonely. I couldn’t climb onto those trucks ever again. It was over. And that was a, you know all of a sudden it was like walkin’ away from a family. Things happened in that period a

time which I spose I could never really tell you them all. There was the time Johnny Duson in front line in Korea, a bloke was gonna punch his head in, and I took up the fight for Johnny Duson and while I’m shapin’ up to him a sniper had a go at us and missed both of us. So that ended the fight before it started.

There was, I saw many wonderful things. I saw fella by the name of Bunny Edwards. A fellow - Bunny got killed - this bloke was out on a route march. He was only a little bloke and he’d really had it and Bunny took his weapon and carried his weapon as well as his own. You saw things happen like this which only happens

under extreme pressure. You see one or two miserable things too, you know. I detested one particular fellow there. He said he’d love to go back behind the lines. He wanted to rape a Korean sheila. Rather than tolerate that I think I would a shot him. That sort a thing was

not in my book but then you know me upbringing what’s from there. Most fellas were good fellas, but here and there we had one or two criminal elements. We had one fella went on leave. He hit another bloke in the head with a bottle and rifled his money. So that was the few criminal elements we had. You had one or two standover men.

When we played Two-up they would try and say, “Well look. I’ll walk you back”, if you won, “I’ll walk you back to your tent.” That never come off with me. Eric Hornsby and I would say, “You can get well and truly to there”. You had all sorts of things that went on in life but you grew up.

As before I was very under trained. They had to form a battalion within 6-weeks.

They took anyone: criminals, wife-deserters anyone at all. They particularly had a fair sprinkling of men that had served in the ’45 war but couldn’t settle back into ordinary life and a lot a marriages broke up on account of the ’45 war. People had been away for so long, they couldn’t settle back into life. But you also had as they were takin’ anyone, people

straight out a prison and some of them weren’t very nice people. But the training itself consisted of…perhaps they expected us to know more on account of havin’ so many ex-diggers spread throughout us. It was

mostly parade-ground work. Lectures on how to use the Owen gun, the Bren Gun and the composition of a hand grenade. It was mainly I feel tryin’ to get us fit.

And I was lucky I was fit at the time but a lot a them weren’t.

Don’t think so. Can’t recall anything about the enemy.

No. Just that was it.

Not that I can recall anyway. I don’t even recall them saying they had Burp guns in China. See the war was very young when we joined. We joined in

’51. We went to Korea in ’52 and come home ’53. It was all still very young. They were desperate still putting together a battalion and we were a battalion really put together to reinforce the battalion that was already there, but we were very poorly trained. I was such of a bad shot with a rifle that when I got to Japan they weren’t gonna let me go to

Korea. But as I said previously, a fella that was a Queens Cup shooter took me in control. He woke up to what I was doing wrong, got me going and I’d say I’d a been within the 10 best shots in Korea he was finished. I was always very confident with meself with a weapon and that’s pretty well it.

Sorry?

I was holding the weapon wrong. He told me how to twist one arm against the other arm to make it a vice-like grip and then I just went ahead hand over fist. At the finish you could put. We had plenty a beer bottles, beer cans and that

I could hit 9 out of 10 of em at 30 paces firing from the hip. So you know and there was no restriction on you in the Australian Army how many rounds you fire when you get away from Australia. If I wanted to fire 500 rounds a day, I could go and do it. You can go and test your weapon at will, practice at will. That is one a the good things. We had quite a lot of advantages over the English

and the other armies in there. I did hear someone say once the English only fired five shots, five rounds in their initial training. Well we’d pump those out without thinkin’ of it. But no, that’s pretty well it. I did do a mortar course in Puckapunyal. I did that

to dodge going out to Scrub Hill and livin’ in a hole in the ground. That was a mistake because I should a been made go out there and learn what it was like to live in hole in the ground and then it wouldn’t a been such as shock to the system when I got to Korea. But the mortar course paid off in this aspect. Where fellas were frightened of mortars, I wasn’t. I knew when to duck.

Knew when I could be in trouble and that did help me a lot.

I found that difficult because I was a free soul. But I never did anything at all to ever get meself charged cause me brothers always said you know,

they taught me that much. I always stayed within bounds. Most fellas get a red mark in their pay book. I never had a red mark in my pay book. That is, they never had to drag me up for not saluting an officer. They never had to drag me up for, you know, being ‘Ack Willy’ [Absent Without Leave] . I played the game by their rules even though, particularly in Korea, there was resentment. But then when I settled down

and become a soldier, I was a good solder.

Never.

No no no. A lot of us there. In Alan Edberg’s pages there, he said of his 40 in his platoon he was amazed that only 20 of em drank alcohol. A lot a blokes get into

trouble mainly when they drink too much; that’s 90% of the problem in all army problems.

No I wasn’t. Well when I say I wasn’t, I used to have a wine or Vermouth or something like that when I used to go to the various balls as a. Went to an awful lot of balls as a young fellow.

But not a heavy beer drinker. But you had a lot of alcoholics join in the army too. Lost people. People they give pensions to today on account of alcoholism but they were alcoholics before they joined the army. That and I spose common sense you know I had a bit of it.

Never a smoker and I haven’t got emphysema. In Korea they issued us with cans of cigarettes, 50 in a can, free. You got a free issue of cigarettes. Same you got a free issue a beer. I used to give me beer away. We got a free issue a rum. Jimmy Lay used to drink my issue of rum and someone else’s and he’d be standin’ up. Rum knocks you

quicker than anything. Never smoked. I tried it as a youngster never liked it. Never smoked. But the fellas that did become heavy smokers all got emphysema.

Give em to whoever wanted it. Give em to the noggies. Give em to whoever wanted em.

Didn’t what?

No never occurred to me to trade at all you know. Australian

troops were well-paid. The average Jap got 2 pound a month. We were about 8 quid [pounds] a week. We were in paradise, son.

Well in Korea you had nothin’ to spend your money on. You saved it up and then after 4 months in Korea, you got 5 days leave in Tokyo and after 8 months you got 3 weeks leave in Tokyo and boy oh boy, were we

3-week millionaires.

You mean where?

Yes. There’s always a few fellows you have to stand up to; there’s always a couple of standover men. But if you stand up to these people and

perhaps I had the ability to do it, I did stand up. I remember one time there, a few of em went out and got full and this bloke come back and someone wants to challenge him to a fight and if he’d a stood up for himself, there were several of us would’ve backed him up straight away. But he laid down and it disgusted us. That sort a thing wasn’t on. You always had the odd bully that tried to stand over other people sometimes.

Like me poor little mate Johnny Duson couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag, but I was always at his shoulder and never had him in trouble, you know. You stood up for yourself; that was the main thing. And you only have to stand up to bullies once, regardless of where you are and they back off. The real good blokes don’t want to fight.

Yeah some people. That’s

one way in the old thuggery days of not gettin’ a beltin’, lay down.

No. I’ve only seen it done once and that was that night and it disgusted me from there. I’ve heard of it being done and it disgusted me. But that bloke would’ve only had to stand on his dig [dignity] . It happened that barney [disturbance] happened late at night in the hut and we only wanted to sleep.

These idiots were disturbin’ our rest. So a couple of us would’ve been only too happy to of accommodated them. So that was the end of that.

Always. A little bit of it yeah you know. I can remember one bloke there, what he’d do? He grabbed someone’s

bed and put it outside and while they were puttin’ his bed outside, the other bloke was grabbin’ his mattress and runnin’ up into the bush with it. There was always plenty a pranks. Pranks are pranks and fun is fun. It’s when it develops past that. Alcohol was the main problem. I saw two fellas have a bayonet fight cause they got half full. You know eventually someone pulled em up and there, but

shockin’ things happen. Alcohol is the problem in young people. Yet in the army before we went on certain patrols, they always offered us a swig a rum. They used to say, “It’s pretty cold out there, would you like a swig a rum?” I always knocked it back but it also breeds ‘Dutch courage’. [false bravery]

No

I was completely confident in meself always. I wasn’t out to win a VC [Victoria Cross] . It never occurred to me. But I was always confident on what I was doing. I knew the risks after a while and they never worried me.

A little bit of it in Puckapunyal.

I regret this. There was a corporal there. He was a New Zealander, big bloke and every morning on parade ground. Now what you’ve got a remember, he had a lot a raw troops to bash into line and I didn’t realise that and he used to say, “You weak bastards. You so-and-so.” And I took it to heart and I swallowed it. He said, “If anyone’s got the guts to stand out here.” He’d say, “Stand

out here in front a me.” And you can’t do that. I knew enough never to step out a line. And I copped it, copped it and when we came home, about 10 years after it, he came we were a reunion and here comes this ex-corporal in and it welled up in me. I couldn’t help it. He’s talkin’ about Pucka. I said, “Put the glass down,” I said, “is that offer still on?”

Look he didn’t explain his point of view. He went home and had a serious heart attack. I regret that but it welled up in me all these years. I used to stand in line seething with rage. This bastard you know and I couldn’t do anything about it til then, but I regret it now that I challenged him. But at the time I was so still enraged, I couldn’t help meself.

I’d a challenged him if he’d a been Joe Louis [champion boxer] , cause he couldn’t do anything to me. He couldn’t charge me.

Oh yes. Yeah he’d dare you to step out a line, course if you stepped out a line he bungs you on a charge.

One bloke one night

hit a corporal that used to do that with a web belt, cut him from there but he did it in the dark. That never occurred to me. I couldn’t be in that. But as an ordinary blow for blow I would not have objected. But he was very careful to dodge that after that. But there was a little bit of bastardry that way but I was also lucky I had a very good

RSM in Puckapunyal, very good. No objections there. I was perhaps too well treated in Puckapunyal. Nothing like the bastardry you read about today. I don’t know they say the Thirtieth Battalion how they, I read in the paper where they get this bloke and two of em give him a hidin’ or something like that. That could not have been on in my

day because those two fellas would’ve had two other fellas from my mates standin’ beside me shoulder to shoulder. We’d a punched tripe out of em or tried to.

Not on. Not on. We were too busy lookin’ after ourselves. See we were all new recruits from there. This is the type of thing that happens

in Duntroon and officers where there’s class distinction one year to another. It doesn’t happen to ordinary soldiers. Now they tried to enforce that apparently in later soldiers in the Third Battalion but it’s bounced back on em. It’s not on.

Yes. I can tell you very clearly. We landed in Japan by plane. Loaded onto a boat and taken around to Kure. Kure was an amazing place, it’s worth a

mention. And when I first saw the Japanese girls they’re slanty-eyed and give me back the Australian girls any day. It’s surprising how they improved in looks in 3 months. The smell a the paddy fields. The cleanliness of the Japanese houses.

See we trained and went all our route marches in Kure up around the rural land of Japan. The beautiful crystal streams coming out a the mountains where we drank the water and we shouldn’t have because it also come out a Hiroshima. The

shipyards which was part of our training area. The holes in the sides a the mountains which the Japanese had used durin’ the war years, they were bigger than St Patrick’s Cathedral. They were dug into the mountains and that’s where they generally done all their work for the shipyards. Kure is a place where it’s closed down 12 years before the war; it was non-entry

to any Europeans. And all under the mountains they had these huge spaces and course when the war we could walk anywhere we liked. And I was amazed at the amount of open space they had in these things there. Kure itself was a wonderful place. There was very few Japanese men.

Millions had been killed and there was plenty a good lookin’ young soldiers well dressed. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Good job me old catholic priest wasn’t there. Now what else can I tell you about it? Venereal disease was rife. They say the average Australian soldier got it 3 times.

Penicillin was a blessing to them. It was easier to cure than a cold in the head and as you probably know it was only an injection and Bob’s their uncle. The only penalty they used to give you for it was you confined to barracks for 7 days. The reason behind this was if they’d a put a stricter penalty on fellas wouldn’t have admitted

to it and tried to cover it up. So it was a very good sensible arrangement. Naturally I sent presents home to me mother and all that. I’ve still got the cups and saucers I sent home to me mother in the cupboard in there. That’s one thing me wife didn’t get off me. It was enlightening. But you’re always homesick for Australia. Can I tell ya anymore about it?

The which?

Hard. Hard. It was mainly route marches. It was hard. That’s when we went were more. You had to be able to be blindfolded, you had to be able to assemble and reassemble a Bren gun, which I could do blindfolded. Because if you’re in the dark and your Bren cocks up in Korea, you got a be able to fix it; same thing with an Owen gun.

I could do all those things no trouble at all. I applied meself pretty well to me training. I can tell ya now today what a hand grenade consists of: amatol and baratol. I can give you the principles of where the you know how long you’ve got 4 seconds when you unscrew it and sort a thing. The best thing is throw the bloody thing away. But you always had the

smell of sewerage in Kure. The shipyard was actually wiped out by the bombers. That’s about it.

Other fellas did. Do you want me to

admit it? Of course everyone did you know. I remember when I was in Tokyo in me 5 days leave, I wrote home to me mother and said I met a very nice Japanese girl and I met up with her again on me 3 weeks leave. But in the meanwhile, a letter had come back to me, “Joe, if you say she’s a nice girl, she’s a nice girl, but it’s

very hard to transplant a rose into the desert.” That was Mum telling me to be careful. A lot a fellas married them. Most of the marriages didn’t succeed because cultures are so different. But I had a lot a respect even though they were our enemy for the Japanese. I had a lot a respect for the cleanliness of their houses. They’re a different race to the Koreans.

You go to a Japanese village and their floors were so spick and span. Oh well, you’ve been to the Orient. You’d notice yourself the difference.

Right.

Japan of today I’ve been back is entirely different to Japan of 50 years ago. There’s no comparison.

Well the countryside had tractors and the land’s all subdivided and all that. But when I went there, it was all little hamlets. You go for your route march and you might say 20 miles you might pass through 10 or 15 little hamlets and they all had their little water dam. There was no roads; you’d walk over narrow tracks across paddy fields, very few roads. It was a delightful little place in many ways.

Yes.

It was about 8 mile across from Kure to Hiroshima. We got in a taxi and went across. You’ve got to remember the average Jap was getting 2 pound a month, 5 bob a week, and we were getting 8 pound a week, so we used to throw it around like it was no. What’d I think of it? When I got there, there was still that bridge that you see the photograph

where it was all mangled. There was only one building, about one building but there was a lot a little humpies there. You could see what was still all blown away. I suppose now this is only my view, I reckon there was an area of about 5 or 6 miles completely cleared in my time we were there. And that was ’51-’52.

There was an interesting part there and this I’ll swear to this on a stack of bibles. They had their little peddlers and this fella sold me two magic dice, flicked em in his finger and I bought em cause I couldn’t see how he did it. They cost me about 30 yen which is about sixpence, but he was also selling pieces of the atomic bomb and you know some a the Yanks were buyin’ em.

They’re ya.

I’m sorry?

The Berlin Wall’s a different thing. But buying a piece of the atomic bomb. He had a wee little bit a metal and he said, “Here, this is part of the…” and this little Jap and he’s got em all set up there and the Yank soldiers ’d buy em as keepsakes. You could kid the Yanks into

anything. Kid em up a tree and chop it down, some of them.

They were young and gullible. When we were in Tokyo we stayed at -when you were on leave you never stayed in camp - you got straight out a the camp and booked into one a the hotels. The hotels weren’t like hotels, you

know, as hotels today. They were big old houses and soon as you went in the door, eight of ya’s went there, each one had their own private maid and all that sort a thing. But they were very well done yeah. And they had a few Yanks in one further down. No they were in the bar there. These Yanks were in the bar and a Negro came in and

the Yanks told the fella owned the joint the Negro had to go or they’d go. And there was 8 of us Australians there and we jacked up and they said, “Well, if he goes we go”. There was still plenty a hate between the Negroes and the Americans and I can give you a perfect instance. At our Officers Mess, there was

an American visitor and afterwards his jeep come to pick him up and to take him back to his own camp, and it was a Negro driver and he sent the Negro driver back with instructions to “send a white man to pick me up”. So there was plenty a hate still between the Negroes and the... But that’s ’52.

There was still plenty a hate in America too, I realise at that time there.

It didn’t come in til about ’60 did it? Segregation.

Yeah. But he sent him home and they’re yeah. If I’d a been the driver, he’d a bloody well

walked back. I’d a said I can’t find him.

Took over one position from them. I couldn’t tell ya that story on camera.

Hey?

There used to be a fellow there, a Negro and

look you’ll get me shot. Everyone used to turn up to watch him, every time he went. See you had pissaphones and they had in the side a the hill. And this bloke he had a horn on him. He used to grab it one and the other hand still had 6 inches floatin’ round in the breeze and every time he used to go everyone used to queue up to watch him have a piss. You wouldn’t believe it. But he was certainly a distraction. But

I had many, there was many wonderful parts of me 2 years in Korea. But that was a amazing thing from there and everyone used to turn round there. Someone once said they used to put lead weights in the end of their doodle to make em grow long but I don’t know if they did or not. But this fella had every excuse for it.

Well that was, you know there. Then we used to have another bloke in the platoon called Knackers cause he had big well hung. But he used to get these love letters you know. But it turned out he was writin’ em to himself.

The

wine’s a good excuse. I’m sorry kid.

Yes that’s a good question that. When I arrived

in Seoul, we went in a truck up to the front line and I was amazed at the amount a burnt-out tanks. I think now tank warfare is a suicide mission because the napalm had just burnt them all out. It’s tanks

are alright standing back from cover blasting away. But they’re got no defence at all from napalm. They turn red hot.

The Yanks used. On Old Baldy, which was opposite 355, the Yanks used to come in time and time again droppin’ napalm. Idea is it runs down the trenches.

You can’t put it out. They used a lot a napalm.

Don’t you believe it son. They used napalm. Saw a lot of it and that was first on. I saw two of our planes shot down, both times

I think the pilot got away. I’m trying to be that factual in anything I say to you and you can take it from me, napalm was used quite often.

No that was in the Chinese. See we wouldn’t be. The only effects I saw is when it’d been used on tanks; they wiped out every

Russian tank in creation. That’s why we never faced tanks in Korea because you know they were sittin’ ducks to the American planes. They tried it once obviously because all these tanks you know are down on our side of Seoul. On the way between Inchon up to the front line

between Seoul was dotted with tanks.

Yes.

Of which?

Using napalm on?

I didn’t see the result, but I saw the planes come in drop the napalm and the big ball of flame go up.

There was no argument. It was napalm.

The Yanks are not too fussed when it comes to warfare, son.

That’s right again. Right again.

I don’t even know if I killed anyone. I remember one night opening up when I suspected there was a Chinese or somebody listening out at our listening post. I suspected there was someone there. I tossed a hand grenade into the bush

which would a been about it was down the slope. I spose it was 30 yards away, 40 yards away and I fired a burst into it. There was no. We found nothin’ when we combed the area, but a hundred yards further down they found a field dressing. But I would not know if I killed anyone. Perhaps if you reported movement somewhere and they shelled it or mortared it, you could’ve caused something.

Never ever did I face to face to kill anyone. But it was not beyond me. It was war.

I beg your pardon?

War’s war. It’s him or me. If a Chinaman had a popped up in front of me, I would’ve killed him. And I’ve no doubt that if they’d a put an attack on with us,

us fellas in the outpost would a got killed. You accept this in wartime, as much as I despise anything to kill anyone today. I’d hate to even kill an animal.

I beg your pardon?

And enjoy it, same for you.

I wouldn’t like to take a life now, that’s part of growing older. It’s part of growing older. Nature of life is you

have to live, particularly imprinted for me you have to kill to live. Everyone kills. Every animal everyone but I didn’t particularly like the idea now but you know.

I’d shoot a wild pig. I’ve been pig shooting. I’d shoot a wild pig because the damage they do. I was up in the Gulf country. I hate to diversify but I saw

the damage which they do to the environment. Sure and you’ll never be able to wipe the wild pigs out. I’d shoot a wild pig, I’d shoot a fox but that’s it. Now back to where you were

Yes. War’s war. There is no halfway mark. I heard someone once criticise someone because in an attack on a feature and he shot a Chinaman that was just comin’ out of a trench. Now that was stupid because you’ve got no option. You’d have to shoot him. What are you gonna do? Wait til he

walks past him and he shoots you in the back? You take all the islands that were taken durin’ the war. The Americans didn’t take prisoners. They stormed the beaches. They shot everything that come up. War’s war.

We were young adventurers, we weren’t idealists. Now we didn’t sit down and ask what this war was about. The

government called for volunteers. We volunteers. Particularly someone had 3 brothers had been to war, it was his turn.

Yes.

Normally three men, sometimes only two. Now imagine yourself on the side of some mountain. The enemy, no one in the valley, the mountain

opposite is the enemy. You’d have a track going down that mountain say about 5-6 feet wide. On either side of it you’d have minefields spread way out either side. At the bottom of that track where the minefield ends, say about whatever’s convenient but just past the entrance to it, you’d have

2 or 3 holes dug and your job is to listen to hear if the enemy’s coming. If there’s an attack you might have a landline, you might have a radio. Sometimes you had nothing. The mere fact that you start firin’

tell’s em something’s wrong. The idea is that you are the warning for the rest of the company. That’s what a listening patrol is. You’d normally go out at last light because if the enemy wanted to sneak up, they’d sneak up as soon as darkness come and you come back at first light because if you don’t get back at first light the enemy can see you and he can take a pot-shot at you.

You’d never let the enemy...well, common sense would reign. For instance one fellow I knew, there was a platoon or he said 50-strong group a Chinese passed over the ridge just down from him. Now he did the right

thing, he shut up, called in the artillery and they blasted them. Now if he’d a opened up, he’d a been a martyr. But if the enemy comes straight for you before you know they’re on it, you’d get a few shots away and the few shots you got away would tell command something’s wrong. That is what a listening patrol outpost is.

You would engage them the same as Grandpa Wipe did on 101. That’s all there is to it.

If you were in a position to ambush them, you’d ambush them. It’s war.

Easy patrol? Yeah alright, I’ll take you on the one I went on 355. I was forward scout that time.

We went down one side a 355. We had to cross over the valley, which is sort of a horseshoe, and come up the other side. I was the forward scout and Frosty was behind me the second one. The forward scout goes so far. Looks around very closely. Makes sure there’s nothing there. The next bloke either comes up to him. Goes through him and does the same. Leap

frog. The rest a the platoon is perhaps 50 yards further back, that’s makin’ sure they’ve got you in sight but makin’ sure they’re not walkin’ into an ambush. And this particular night this fella got sent home with war nerves. This particular night Frosty came up to me. The platoon moved up a bit closer than

or I was goin’ a bit slower than they realised. I might a been being extra cautious. I wasn’t too keen on walking into any ambush by meself. Although I didn’t mind the forward scout because normally they let the forward scout through so they can get the platoon. And then would a been from here to that door, Frosty was from me and all of a sudden he said, “Chows.” And he swung round with his Owen gun and I would a covered that bit a ground

amazingly. Hold it. He nearly wiped up the left hand section of our own blokes. So but that’s with an ordinary patrol is. You’re not expecting any Chinese in the area but you always think they might be. It was relative ground we could see all the time but we were just cutting across virtually the bottom of the minefield,

because there was a wire running there and on your way across make sure the wire’s not down or been cut. See the Chinese had a habit of cuttin’ the wire. A bloke’s walkin’ the next patrol they see no wire and they walk into their own minefield. So that is the thing there.

I think we over patrolled because we had so many casualties and I put that down to the particular commander at that stage. But we got control of the valley and we kept control of the valley. I think that was important. It made a big difference if you had control of the valley.

You wasn’t walkin’ into ambushes and you wasn’t gettin’ attacked. Common sense. But I just think the particular commander at one stage, as I said in that letter there, sending people with pure disregard for life on a mission impossible.

Is the gamble of 25 men on the possibility of one prisoner a reasonable gamble? Particularly as you know the place they’re attacking is well fortified?

They tried that too many times and at the time I didn’t realise

the risk. At the time it wasn’t til after the war that I stopped and realised they tried that tactic too many times. And an experienced soldier definitely should have known better.

It would not have worried me. War is war. But the average Chinese that we would a captured would a known as much as I

knew. What value would I have been to the Chinese if he’d a captured me? I was a soldier sittin’ in a trench. He could say, “Who are you?” “Yeah, I’m Joe Blow, me number. I’m Joe Blow yeah”. What would I know of tactical decisions made by the generals back there in their safe hutchies sending out these patrols? I regard it a lot a lives were wasted unnecessary.

What information would one of a million Chinese soldiers, one man ordinary soldier, had that could’ve helped us?

We had millions of em we could’ve traded back. We could’ve given em 4 to 1. No, that wasn’t the point. The point was they were so paranoid about being important fella, important battalion commander that got the prisoner and he was willin’ to pay a price

for that which is beyond it’s worth; there in black and white.

It’s there in black and white and undoubtedly some of the lesser officers thought this way. But this now is all in retrospect.

There was no tension. Now I estimate and I’ll you can take me on me word of honour. I estimate I did a patrol every 3 nights. I was in the line 6 weeks in, 6 weeks out; except for the first part I was in it for 3 months straight. So you could say

just over 6 months solid, I was in the front line. That’s the very front line. So every 3 nights, I was on some sort of a patrol. Don’t ask me what sort, different nights but that is what they had to have. I never flunked the patrol. I never jibbed a patrol. I never slept on a patrol so that was pretty well it. Nerves

never worried me. It was only when I come home me nerves got the better of me.

You were that busy. The army keeps you that busy you haven’t got time to think. You’re either digging holes, you’re doing something.

I don’t know. I just don’t know the answer to your question. Nerves was not a part of my worry when I was in Korea. I looked after meself. I didn’t take any stupid risks intentionally that is. And that was it.

Right. There’s generally anything from 3 to 5 or 2 to 5 in a hootchie. Your bed consisted of these three quarter 3-sided iron pickets, which you hammer into the ground. You had one a those on a box or a sandbag where it doesn’t come, together

with a machine gun web belt as the bedding or if you were lucky enough to scrounge yourself a canvas sheeting. That was your bed. Your kit bag was your pillow. You had a sleeping bag, which was extremely good: in mid-winter the

only place you’d see is a bloke’s nose in it. In the coldest of weather a hootchie’s warm because the heat can’t get out. There’s no draft. You still had the little fire going. You ate, slept in it and that was it.

It had a dirt floor. I suffered with claustrophobia a fair bit at the start anyway. I’d wake up, I was in the top bunk and you’d feel the earth on top, pitch black, earth walls it was a terrible feeling. But I soon got used to it. But it came back later in life, particularly when I got home I suffered from claustrophobia very badly.

Two different things. I only remember that from when I was about a 4 year old. That was made a corrugated iron and that had a few bags hangin’ up to divide walls. That would

a been a very short period in me life. I only just remember that little part cause I remember him havin’ a draft horse and givin’ me a ride in the back a this draught horse.

Where?

We lived on American C-rations. Later on we lived… Early in the piece on 101, we lived on

American C-rations. That is, baked beans, little cans of rice, dry biscuits and things like this. Later on, back on 355 they got the flying fox in. The last 6 months on that or the last 4 months on that, they had the flying fox in where they used to at the back, where we had a kitchen down there.

They used to ferry things up in hot dixies and we were the Australian food was quite good. It was more plentiful than the other armies and we got more meat than the other armies. In fact, the Americans used to offer to swap us turkey for steak. Except early in the piece

they had a lot a bully beef. We had a lot a bully beef but that again when we were on canned ration and do you get sick a bully beef. The cook there he fried it, he stewed it. You can’t describe bully beef.

Yeah I reckon it was.

Probably had Angless’s brand on it.

Yes you’d pick up a gun or pick a bit a metal object in winter and it’ll stick to your hand. As I said, you piss on the ground and it didn’t even, it would be a little mountain the next morning. But hygiene reason you

didn’t, but some idiots did. The dribble of urine into the pissaphones ’d be frozen the edges. You obeyed their rules and never got into trouble. I can’t remember any Australian gettin’ worried of frostbite. We were well clothed, I’ll say that. We had these parkas. We had crepe soles in our shoes.

We had very heavy mitten gloves. We were well clothed. The Australian soldier was really on the whole. You had one or two idiots, but on the whole we were well led, well fed.

American parka. I think it was American parka. And very, very heavy underpants; I never

changed me underpants for 6 weeks. You could whistle they’ll follow you. I think we got one change there. But and in the real wet weather, you had two pair a trousers right in your hootchie; one pair you kept for when the rain stopped, the other pair you wore as long as they were wet. You slept in

em wet from there. But we were young and survived it quite well.

Yes.

Yes.

I can recall one. I wasn’t involved in it. But what happened was chooffer went up. Luckily

I don’t think there was anyone in the hootchie. And it was just one big huge roaring flame. And I remember the officer having presence of mind. One of the officers said, “Look, get back to your hootchie because the Chows will range in on it.” That gives em a spot where something’s happening. They can fire their weapons knowing where the explosion is someone will be around it. And sure enough they did send a few shells over but

all we could do is stand back and let it roar. See we had no means of fighting that sort of fire.

Grenades were goin’ off left right and centre. See you always had your grenades no matter if I... Say I had half a dozen grenades, you know packed here and there, you’ve just connected em back on. You’ve cleaned em yourself. You made sure they were there. You took

em when you went out on patrol. Now there would a been grenades in that hootchie and they would a been poppin’ off like from there. But you couldn’t do anything about it. I remember someone saying, “Is there anyone in there?” And I think it was a sergeant that said, “if there’s anyone there, leave him there. Can’t do anything now.”

Yes, and dodging mortars.

I heard of some fancy ideas. I know when someone got the brilliant idea once at taking a blanket down into the valley and puttin’ some crackers on it and things like that and lightin’ em to

you know just to throw these Chinese off vogue a bit. But that was hair-brained scheme that never came off. I think the Chinese knew about it before they did. See the Chinese would’ve had a few plants among the Koreans that worked for us. That’s obvious. They shot a couple a poor Koreans whether they were guilty or not.

With the which?

That’s what you used to call ‘noggie bashing’. I was never was lucky enough to get that job. That is, you had a team of noggies, correct name Koreans, they were generally peasants and you’d go

back to get supplies because the jeeps couldn’t get up the side a the mountain and all that. That was before you got the flying foxes in. One bloke went back when we were in reserve, he had to go back to near Seoul to pick up the grog for the Officers Mess. But he disappeared and didn’t turn up for a week and neither did the grog. And when they caught up with him eventually, fella the name of Geoffrey Jetson. I’ll mention the name

cause it’s common knowledge and they asked him where he had been. He said, “I’ve been meditating.”

He incidentally was the fellow, he went berserk, he climbed a tree, very few trees in Korea; the Japs wiped every tree out of Korea. But he climbed one a the few of em that were there and when they were tryin’ to talk him down, he claimed he was a lion

and he wouldn’t come down. Eventually he did come down. When he slipped down from the tree, he bit the major on the leg. That was enough for em to call him a psycho [mentally disturbed] and send him home.

No, he did become a psycho. He was a very brave person. He carried a flamethrower on a forward advance once. I wasn’t on that. But to do that you be pretty brave. Because

anyone carrying a flamethrower is the number one target. So he was a good boy. If he hadn’t a gone bonkers he would a got a decoration.

Yeah, I think it, whoever his CO [Commanding Officer] it was he bit. He said, “I’m a lion and (sound effect)” and they sent him home after that.

Yes. There was always a bookmaker somewhere and then in the last few months, I was the bookmaker. Gambling’s in me blood. I gamble now.

Australian races. We used to get the

fields one o’clock. There was one ‘smart alec’ he had a bigger radio set and he could get the results of the first couple a races before Radio Australia broadcast it; see Radio Australia used to broadcast the races. And he used to when I took over, he’d come over with all these bets. You know little bets little bets and one big bet down the bottom of the page. I said,

“Well look, that race is over and finished” and give him back the money. That was the one that won too. No more bets from him. But some ‘smart alec’ will always try and find some way of rippin’ off the system. It was, you’ll always… As long as there’s an Australian Army, there’ll always be a bookie. And the CO as a rule gives his blessing to it. Now whether he gets

a bit back or not I dunno, whether that’s part of a perk or not I don’t know.

No, no, no. I would a lost. No, I am only a racehorse gambler. Sorry. And I used to gamble on the fights a lot. Go to the trots. I gamble too much, there’s

no two ways at all about it. I’ve made a lot a money and gambled it, no regrets. My family never missed out ever. My girls went to the top private schools. They all have wonderful homes now from there.

Oh yes. I spun 14 heads ['heads' came up 14 times on coin toss] at Pucka before we went and broke everyone in the camp. That was the night the

two would-be standover men tried to escort me home and Eric Hornsby and I knocked em back. We were good enough to give em their corner. But yeah, I spun 14 heads and that’s a pretty good row. And the only reason I stopped at 14, no one had any money left. They couldn’t set the centre.

I spose I made about 700 or 800 quid and that was big money then.

You got a remember wages were about 10 quid. Money stickin’ out a me ears.

No because that’s a different kettle of fish. In the front line, you just... By rights you shouldn’t gather in groups when you’re in the front line and most a the time, I was in the front line. You didn’t have time to organise anything. And

besides the bloke that used to like to organise Two-up, Racer Hill got killed, Racer did the first week I was in Korea. I can reel off names fellas who got killed in Korea like nobody’s business you know, fellas that trained with me in Puckapunyal particularly. I think in the original hut we were in, which held about 16 fellas and 2 NCOs who were never there, so probably

had 18 fellas in it, I think at least 6 of them got killed. So it was quite a relative waste.

No I honestly don’t. I can’t say I did. They probably did. They would a done something but I can’t remember it.

They had one day when the whole three battalions come together. It was the only time ever in Korea. The whole parade that day lasted about 6 or 8 hours. It meant troops were standin’ around all day while the big brass was only there for about 20 minutes. No I don’t remember any. I remember Christmas in Korea.

We’d moved out a the line for Christmas and I got a photograph of Major Trennery at a bit of a Christmas party we had and we moved back in for New Years Day, but nothing spectacular. Winter in Christmas in Korea was a bit chilly.

That’s the opposite to Australia.

No. Cut it out. No not even me own. Come and went. My Mum probably sent me, Mum used to send me a ginger cake and there was that many scroungers when that arrived that it would be gone in 10 minutes. But

no you never celebrated birthdays.

I told you. We moved out a the line. I was only in Korea for one Christmas. We moved out a the line for Christmas, moved back for New Years Day.

After 5 weeks. Correction,

after 4 months, you got 5 days leave in Tokyo and they were very good. Your leave started the day you got to Tokyo, not the day you left your what’s-you-call-em there. You got complete issue of new clothing straight away. They did everything possible, first class food and that in the camp. They did everything possible to keep you in camp cause they knew what you’d be doin’ when you got out

a camp. But like the rest of em soon as I got there, I used to spend the days out a camp and have me meals, me breakfast and tea in camp. The Ginza, the main street of Tokyo was a wonderful place to young people. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Busy people, lights and I’d come out of a place

where complete darkness. There was one part in Korea that was beautiful and that was first thing of a morning when you were on top of a hill and you could see the next hill, and the whole valley would be covered in mist and you’d see this hill, you’d see that hill and it was a wonderful sight. There was many wonderful things that pop up afterwards. The 3 weeks

leave in Tokyo glorious.

What else was worth spending money on? They spent the money on the girls and

the grog. I spent very little on grog. It was a wonderful, it was a… I take that back to some extent, I did a fair bit. They used to run at the army, sort of auxiliaries, run tours and things like this.

I toured the various Japanese palaces, the Japanese shrines, Mount Fuji. I saw the things I should see while I was in Tokyo, yes. Some of em were drunk from the time they got there to the time they left. Some of em were too busy gettin’ into fights and getting’ locked up, and we were subject to Japanese law. They made that very clear to you. If you did the wrong thing, you

were subject to Japanese law. But what the army would do if you got into trouble, they’d bail you out and put you on the next plane back to Korea so you didn’t really face the court.

Rape. Robbery. Not that I’m aware that anything like this happened. But any

law breakers. Like the main problems was the drunks that got into fights and brawls and smashed up places.

That’s right.

No. No not that I know of again. But most of our fellas that got into trouble only got into trouble

because they got drunk, got into fights and brawls, then they’d get into fights with the MPs [Military Police] and the - not the MPs so much cause they were pretty strong - but the Japanese police that tried to arrest em. Now that’s where the problems started and generally finished and they generally whipped em out a the country pretty quick.

They got into fights over women but once again you were bound by Japanese law. They

told ya this so if you were silly enough to step over the line and I never stepped over the line.

Not necessary. Those that I spoke to, I got on well with. Undoubtedly I must’ve spoke to several of em at times. Shopkeepers you traded and bartered with.

Most of em were nice people, ordinary people like we are.

Told ya. I liked the one little Japanese girl and I liked the fire in her. And a very lovely thing happened to me, perhaps one a the nicest things in me life. Johnny Duson and I were at a nightclub there in Japan and that little Japanese girl was there and

we had plenty a money and we used to have to give her 500 yen every time we went out with her. But that wasn’t to sleep with her, that was just the pleasure of the company. The average prostitute cost 300 yen but she was a bit classier than the rest, I didn’t mind givin’ it to her. She was a very nice dancer and I loved dancing. And this night I said, “John, you got any money left?” He said, “Oh no Joe,

I’m broke.” So I’m fiddling in me pocket and I was broke. So I got up and I was dancing with her and I saw her hand coming out of me top pocket and I smacked the hand away like that and I was enraged. I sat her down, bloody pickin’ me pocket, I thought to meself, “After, you know, the times we’ve had”. And I walked out with John. I said, “C’mon let’s go”. We went out the front door and

prepared to walk back to Ebasu which would’ve been 4 or 5 mile to camp. But that didn’t worry us in those days and I said, “I’m broke” and I felt in me pocket. She’d stuck 500 yen in me pocket. Now to her that’s a fortune. She’d be lucky to get that once a month. And of course, I screamed back to see her but she’d gone. She wrote to me afterwards

but what could I do? That was one a the nicest things could a happened. To her that 500 yen was a lot a money. People paid that to spend a whole night with a prostitute and here she was givin’ it to me. But it was just one a the nice things in life I regret.

Sorry.

Yes it is, because only I know the poverty those girls were going through at that stage. See at that stage, there was no work in Japan. It was really the Korean War that put Japan back on the map, that got them going again. But that’s the way it crumbled.

Right.

I was in Japan then. I was in Japan; it ended about 3 weeks after I left Korea and I was sorry I wasn’t in Korea when it ended cause I’d a loved to gone over and seen the Chinese lines.

I’d a loved to see their lines, but it wasn’t to be.

Nothing. But I would’ve liked to have seen them because they must’ve been very intricate. They must’ve been, we heard rumours that for every Chinaman soldier there was amount of labourers that did the

digging and they must’ve been extremely well dug in to withstand the pounding we gave them and the napalm. Now I believe that when the napalm was dropped the Chinese had their trenches built like that, then a step. Built down again a step, so as the napalm couldn’t run into the main part a the tunnels because plenty a napalm was tipped on them.

I would’ve liked to have seen it. I saw the prisoners when they come home. I was still in Japan then and to me they looked fit and all looked. They didn’t let us contact them. I only saw them as they left the bus going into the compound. But they all looked very well.

They must’ve been handed back within weeks, because I was in Japan about 5, took about 5 weeks before I come home.

No.

After Japan?

Nothing. You mean after the war?

When me 12 months were up, the war was still going on in Korea. They sent me to Japan to await transport back to Australia. Now there was a lot of troops coming back and there was a long waiting list. I spose I was there 4 or 5 weeks waiting to come home.

I got leave every day just about. They’re very good to ex-diggers the army is. Once you become an old digger, they’re good to you. I got leave just about every day. There might a been a few manual jobs they palmed onto me, I don’t remember and I come home on an American plane and it hedge-hopped. I went from Japan to

Guam and I liked Guam. And the Yanks said, “You wanna stay a couple a days?” “Yeah”. I stayed 3 days in Guam. I hadn’t seen a big American mess hut anything like it before. The food was first class. The weather was beautiful. And then I went on to Iwo Jima and once again I liked it. They let me stay in Iwo Jima for 3-days and then it was onto

New Guinea and New Guinea disgusted me. I couldn’t get.. I went to the edge of the airfield and I went straight back to the orderly room and said to the bloke there, “Listen mate, get me onto the first plane back to Australia”.

I’m not sure. I think, it was not Lae. What’s the other one?

No.

What’s the other big city?

Port Moresby, but it was very primitive. Now this is 1950’s, you got a remember. The natives walking past with tufts of grass stickin’ out their bum and it was the, I couldn’t get back to Australia quick enough. I realised what Australia. And when we got back to Australia, there was no parades or anything.

There was only two of us on that private flight, two soldiers and we reported to the orderly room. They put us on a bus to go out to the local army depot. Next week they flew us to Melbourne and that was it.

Yes. It was all over. It was first of all, I was elated to be home. To see me family again and then just for that little bit when I left the army, there was that little bit of regret. But then I had another life to live and I got on with it. But the war did leave a

terrible, I dunno how to explain it effect on me. Nerves were shot to pieces. Claustrophobia. Shell shock. And that was it. I was a different person from there and I was a more aggressive. I was a pleasant person before I went.

I was a very aggressive person, I realise, when I come back. But I’ve got over it and now I’m where I am now. You can’t go through an experience where you lose so many friends and have so many close calls not to have any effects on you. And the thing that upset me now is when I strike people telling stories,

claiming to be in Korea that were never there, and they’re about and they’re doing it regularly. That upsets me.

Yes. Living on dead man’s glory. We got one in our RSL [Returned Services League] now and everyone puts up with him. But he wasn’t in Korea

in the war time, he was in Korea after it. But he tells such terrible lies. How he was there and he led a patrol and all this, which is plain bullshit. I’ve seen his army records and he wasn’t there. He only has two medals when he should have three, so he borrows one off someone. And the first time he borrowed one, I said nothin’; the second time I

chipped him. And I said to the bloke that lended it to him, “He’s not entitled to it. Don’t lend it to him” so he went out and he bought em. You can go and buy em anywhere and there’s quite a few people wear bought medals. Now, why you’d wonna do that I don’t know. Do you think you could imagine yourself going out and buying

a couple of Vietnam medals if you’re old enough and wearing em?

I beg your pardon?

Even if you’re old enough?

No. Well, these people do it and it upsets me.

Why? I’m not a psychiatrist. I couldn’t tell you that answer but they do it. Not everyone. There’s the odd one does it

and it’s one a my pet hates.

Yes the government I think had kept it pretty well low key. When we got to the airport, there was one person there to greet us. Only one

at the airport in Sydney; that was Major Trennery’s mother. And she was a delightful lady but perhaps I brushed her off too quickly. I just wanted to get out and see the world again. But she was there. Obviously he had wrote and told her to expect us; God knows how many flights she turned up waitin’ for us. And I bitterly regret I didn’t pay more attention to her and she was a lady in every respect.

I dunno that. It didn’t worry me at that stage. But I realise now. See, me close friends all knew about it. But in the 2 years I was in the army away

most a ya friends had diversified. I come home and attend a dance, which I used to attend as a young fella before I went, girls had moved on and got married. I remember one girl, should I say this?

Her name starts with M and for years I had a soft spot with her, probably would’ve married her, or would I a married Phil? I’m not sure.

And I met Marg at a dance down the Merri Creek I think just after I got back. See we were brought up very virtuous young men. We didn’t make the approaches perhaps we should a made. And she said, “Joe.” Struck her in the barn dance she said, “Joe, haven’t seen ya for years.” “Oh yeah, chat, chat, chat” She said, “By the way, I’m gettin’ married next month.” And I turned round and I said, “Oh Marg,” I said,

Always had a soft spot for you” and with that she spun back with all the venom a woman can produce and told me that’s plenty. She says, “Well you’re mighty slow in telling me.” And with that she marched on. I’d hurt someone and not realised it. War has a strange thing on you, you know. The girl I went with a fair bit

said it was a different Joe Prendergast that came back that went. But I was more aggressive, I realise that. You realise these things later on in life when you look at yourself. The girl I wind up marrying was a girl I met in Sydney when she was 25 and I was 27. I was a gift from heaven to her, a 25-year old single woman.

Plenty without realising it. As I said I was over-aggressive. Could never sleep properly again ever. You couldn’t explain this unless you actually lived it, but many people have it that were there.

I never stayed still after that. I become a wanderer.

I worked in just about every state in Australia, what I was lookin’ for I don’t know, I suppose that was only 2 years.

Then I met this girl in Sydney when I was 25 and on the spur of the moment got married. That was too soon to get, but I made a success of it. I did very well in life. I become a good real estate agent. I become a registered bookmaker. I had a Mercedes Benz,

had a home with an in-ground pool, had everything and when the marriage broke up, it all flittered away. But doesn’t matter anymore. I’m comfortable now.

Not that much. People say they get nightmares of the wars. You get very little. Your problem is the claustrophobia from being in the thing and

now I’m being dirt honest with you, I don’t’ think that many fellows dream about the war. I think that’s a phrase they use in getting pensions. You might dream about it a little bit. Cause the war wasn’t that real close contact. But you do get a shocking amount of shell shock and claustrophobia. That is

shocking.

Of course, we weren’t running up stabbing people even though you were trained with rifles, you know what I mean? Ours is a little bit further contact.

But where it got to us was the constant bombardment, that was the main thing; and sleeping underground; wakin’ up when you only got dirt and pitch black. You only got - you’re buried alive - you only got dirt roof, dirt walls. That’s what really gets to you. Got to me anyway and that’s what and the shell shock is what got to me. You go like that on

when come home, make a noise and I’d hit the ground.

You couldn’t explain it.

That’s only chicken feed. One comes in, you listen for the next one. Then the next one’s there but you’re listening for the next one but it’s coming. You know its coming.

They said in one position, they said to us 1,800 mortars come in that night and “One’s gotta come in the hole,” you say, “sooner or later” but it didn’t. The little noggie wanted to get up and run and I held him on the ground to stop him from gettin’ out from there, cause his own army would a shot him if he’d a run.

Because he was frightened.

He knew a mortar would come in the hole sooner or later. If I sat you on the side a Mount Macedon now and you’re there for the afternoon and I’d say, “Well, sometime if you stay there, two mortars are gonna land on the side a that hill”. You’d get off that hill for lick a ya life. Now if it’s happening all the time, particularly if one mortar landed among four a ya mates and killed the four of em.

It should’ve affected me worse than it did.

I was there and they were blown to smithereens. I turned Mick Healy over and he was black and little holes all over him and Jock Hamilton had a hole in his throat as big as that and you could see the white of the back bone.

He didn’t pump out blood. He was pumpin’ out lumps of blood.

No, I’m pretty right now. I still have trouble sleeping, I still have trouble with claustrophobia but I’ve got over the sound.

Doesn’t worry me now.

Oh yes.

Doesn’t worry me now.

If you hear thunder you think it’s an explosion. See that self preservation registers in your mind first above everything else. But it’s over now.

To me it’s over and I lived through a terrific thunderstorm the other night. Never worried one iota. In fact I stood out there and watched the lightning for a while.

I don’t suppress it. I’ve lived through it. It doesn’t worry me any more.

Yeah you’ve accepted it. Certain things I can still get upset easy.

I can get upset easy from there. I shouldn’t but I do. I pray that’s the reason me marriage broke up but.

They’re 50 years ago. They’re gone. The only thing that’s still with me is hard to sleep and claustrophobia. I’d go

mad if I was locked in a prison cell, I’d go stark ravin’ mad.

No. I’d do the same thing again.

I think it was an experience I lived and I’m grateful for it. The army looks after me extremely well now. I’ve no doubt if I hadn’t a joined the army I’d a made a… I wouldn’t a married the same girl, I’d a married one a the little girls I grew up with. I wouldn’t have gambled so much. I would’ve been much more successful in

life.

Perhaps I use gambling as an alcoholic uses thing. You never forget the claustrophobia. That will always be there. I once went to go through the caves up in New South Wales with a

guided tour. I got within 3 or 4 feet of the inside and I was a screamin’ mess. I couldn’t do it, I couldn’t go into a cave.

Sorry?

A few very good friends I wouldn’t otherwise have. That’s very, very important to me now in me life. Perhaps it taught me too how to understand the Japanese people. I have a lot a respect for the Japanese people. I don’t see them as the bloodthirsty

murderers which they were at that stage but the whole world in many ways was that way. I think me knowledge of the Korean people was very good. There were a lot of pluses. I lived life, put it that way. I lived life.

I never had the opportunity to be what some people were. I think it’ll be a wonderful thing, my grandsons are gonna go to Duntroon, mainly from my influence and I think the risk will be there that they will get killed. The risk will be always they’re gonna live

life and I think living life’s more important than worryin’ about a risk of gettin’ killed.

Yes. Only they make it to Duntroon because that way they become the elite and they go through to be officers.

Very much so, I do have a strong influence on them.

I argue about that. They say that. Some people call it ‘the Forgotten War’ but I don’t. Because take it into its ratio, its

proportion of the people that were involved to the people that were involved in the other war. See World War I you lost half a million people; correction, you lost 50,000 people. But it was 10% of the population, you know. So there’s not that many relatives involved. In Vietnam, you had 50,000 people involved, you know there was more people involved.

No we’re not the forgotten war. I’ll always remember it and the other fellas were there’ll always remember it. I think the government went to sleep and tried to sweep it under the card table because they didn’t want to recognise the casualties. But they look after us well and we’ve got no complaint.

Course it was.

Because it would a taken, look there was 3 million killed as it was. Now to try and push those Chinese back, how many more do you think would a got killed? You just couldn’t a supplied enough. You’d a had to charge across that valley and it was roughly three quarters of a mile to half a mile of open land. They couldn’t push us back either.

They’d a pushed us into the sea if they could. They couldn’t.

I respect them as any one respects a fighting foe, that’s all, no more, no less.

They which?

Yes. Well you see, we didn’t have the atrocities which come up from the German war or come up from the prisoners of the Japanese war where men

died of starvation or men were worked to death. This war didn’t last that long and in China they had the money and that to feed their prisoners. Now you gotta remember in Germany they wouldn’t have even had the food to feed the prisoners in the first place. Sure it was terrible what happened. Same with Japan. They’d a been so short a food they wouldn’t have food to feed them. War’s war. Lives are taken but

I think overall they were fairly treated.

I don’t know if they were or not. But all I can say to you, the Chinese economy wasn’t pushed to the

point where they had to starve prisoners and they wanted to be able to negotiate a peace on their terms. Now if they’d a been turning around starving prisoners and shootin’ prisoners left right and centre, where would their bartering points been? I think everyone was sick a the war at the finish.

In retrospect, we should never been there. We were propping up a corrupt regime from the word go. I don’t know the true reasons behind it other than that. I feel America was paranoid

about communism, whether they were or not I will never know because you and I only see the propaganda part we’re told. What they made their mistake in Vietnam was using conscripts. You see, in Korea we were all volunteers, well paid volunteers.

In Vietnam you used conscripts. You used young fellows were halfway through their schooling, halfway through their university. Just got married to or just goin’ out to his girl for the first time and all this sort a thing. You uprooted a lot a people that weren’t ready to leave home. They still should a been with their mum. Now that’s the difference. Korea picked men that were

willing to leave home and ready to leave home. Vietnam you picked young fellas that most of em weren’t ready to leave home. They’re still tied to their mum’s apron strings and that had a terrible devastating effect.

Only a sprinkling. There was plenty to start with but at the finish in Korea itself, there

was only a sprinkling of what’s-you-call-em there. I only struck, when we were in Puckapunyal the first time, I suppose a quarter of em were veterans. In Korea itself, I think I only struck about one. They padded to the wayside. But you gotta remember too they would a been older men and the army tends to use the younger

men in front-line wars.

Meant nothing. Meant nothing to me.

I didn’t have time to reflect on it. I met a few New Zealanders, liked them but

there was no time for pushing that sort a thing. There was no propaganda put out for that sort a thing. The Korea War popped up so quick. See, there was no long campaign over the Korean War it just popped up overnight. There wasn’t the same amount of propaganda as you get against a communist country.

We were our own little group. Kept well away from them. The air force was there only cause I saw one or two Australian planes, that’s it.

They operated mainly from Japan so there was no need for us to be near them.

Yes.

I only went through Seoul twice. I went through Seoul on me way up to the front line and through Seoul when I was going on leave each time. The truck drove through Seoul. It was an old city like you see in the movies. Most of it in

ruins because the war had passed through it about 3 times.

No, it’s got a different culture, entirely different, now you come to think of it. I don’t know how but

it’s different. Korea is very different from Japan. Perhaps they had more thatched roofs. They were older. It’s very difficult

to explain.

Yes.

Yes they weren’t as advanced. See you gotta remember, Korea prior to the World War II was dominated by Japan and held back. Japan took every tree out a Korea. There was hardly a tree in Korea.

It was automatic thing. You were either friends with people or not, and the blokes you got on with you got on with. The one or two you didn’t, which was very rare, you didn’t. But you were too busy

doin’ your job to get involved in arguments.

Strongly yes. As I said, Frank Connolly who maybe you will be interviewing, we’ve been mates for 50 years. Eric Hornsby and I were very good mates. There was many of us very good mates. I belong to the RSL

Korean Branch. I regard em to all as me mates there, but they served in different sections durin’ the war.

I’ve never fancied other fellows one bit.

There’s probably a bit of it going on but I was oblivious to it. And you gotta remember too, we grew up in a very Victorian era

where you didn’t touch girls or the pill wasn’t invented. So we were, you know, used to not havin’ the sexual freedom which they enjoy today. But you got plenty of that on your 5 days leave and in your 21 days leave and before you went to. Sure life was life and we all lived it to the fullest.

Would which?

Of course she would’ve. You know that was it. I dunno how old you are, but if you were gettin’ married today, you wouldn’t expect to marry a virtuous woman or she marry you. Same thing. It’s a different world, son, and war changes it more than anything else. You had how many million young

Japanese girls there? No form of income. Sure a lot of em were prostitutes and very pretty ones, and they had no option if they wanted to survive. Different values put by different people at different times.

The mornings were beautiful when you were on a hill and the mist was right down in the valleys, you could only see hill to hill. I saw a waterfall somewhere once and I can never remember where it was. That was a beautiful sight. And I

used to console myself when I got down and look at the Imjin river and I used to watch the water a fair bit and I used to watch the moon a fair bit when I was homesick and I used to say, “There’s two things they can’t change. They can’t change the water and they can’t change the moon.” The moon was me friend in Korea. Because your view out sitting in a trench you could tell the time

by the moon. Full moon nights were friendly nights. You could read the paper in the snow on a full moon. The prettiest sight I saw in? It’s hard to find something other than that in wartime.

Yes

because no one could. If you’re out there on a trench no one can sneak up on you. You can see for miles. Particularly on the snow I’d be just like a black dot you know. Sure, you never really felt safe. No correction. You never really felt safe but the moon was me friend put it that way. I could tell the time by the moon.

I used to watch the moon a lot.

For a brief period I often wonder if

I’d a stayed in the army what me career would’ve been. But not having gone to Duntroon I would never of been an officer. The most I would’ve only got to a warrant officer. But I liked the army at the finish. The army is a fair place and if you play it by the rules you’re treated fairly. Anything other than that? I feel

I’d love to be able to say thank you to the little Japanese girl that put the 500 yen in me pocket and I never saw her again cause I realised she really liked me. I liked her. I’d like to say thank you to the magnificent officer in Major Trennery who was a wonderful man in my book.